[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Thu Apr 4 10:56:58 EDT 2013

It's been beat up quite a bit on the list here in the past.
The Cleveland block assumes you use a Cleveland thermostat which will
close off the bypass hole in the block.
This block off plate is hammered into the bypass opening and only
allows the bypass to pass coolant through that tiny hole.
Mostly, that allows air to percolate upwards.

With this plate in the block, you can use any thermostat you want in
place of the Cleveland type.

My Pantera has no thermostat in the block. It's a remote BMW
thermostat as per John Taphorn's coolant mod write up on our website.

Regards
Kirby

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
> Kirby
> Can you explain how that works?
> Jack
> On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:36 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
>
>> The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the manufacturer.
>>
>> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate.htm
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
>>> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
>>>
>>>> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific 160 deg
>>>> thermostats, only 180-192-195.  Those in the know say we should always run the
>>>> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no problems.
>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>
>>>> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new aluminum plate
>>>> that replaces the brass one under the thermostat.  This new aluminum plate has
>>>> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump or thermostat
>>>> doesn't have to be used.  Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even Chevy
>>>> thermostat.  Also no water pump with the special bypass is needed.  We'll see if
>>>> any of this makes a difference.  The new aluminum plate came from Dennis
>>>> Quella.  The small hole lets any air out of the block.
>>>>
>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>>>> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
>>>> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content with their
>>>> cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there. It's like, "what the
>>>> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as suggested by
>>>> some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate - and I only have a couple
>>>> thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to try anything. I live in so. California,
>>>> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes with the air
>>>> on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm,  - I,m screwed. I was in
>>>> Austin  for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me of I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played
>>>> with cars my whole life, and cooling this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS NOT
>>>> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white car without
>>>> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic exhaust ( I
>>>> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a 750 holly. No
>>>> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just haven't hit the
>>>> right button yet. I wish these cool running cars could be transported here and
>>>> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple years. Fine,
>>>> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run for a radiator
>>>> cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to where I could blow all the
>>>> liquid out, then hang the car by it's rear, and fill it. Bleeding the radiator
>>>> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling it like
>>>> that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain about air in the
>>>> system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in the water pump. Now I'm down
>>>> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've played around
>>>> with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change easily, I'd like to try 160 -
>>>> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I get an oil
>>>> temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is relative to the coolant.
>>>>
>>>> Jack
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators, changed
>>>>> fans,
>>>>>
>>>>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and *still* have
>>>>> problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked the car up
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>> the back to get the air out of the system….
>>>>> Never had a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, well….
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW,
>>>>> Kirby
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot water?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking up the
>>>>>> rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave our cars an
>>>>>> overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator,
>>>>>> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual electric
>>>>>> fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100% antifreeze and 2/3
>>>>>> distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water wetter coolant mix.  I live in
>>>>>> Savannah, Georgia where the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90%
>>>>>> humidity.
>>>>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would overheat would
>>>>>> be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving the engine past 3,000
>>>>>> rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in more temporate weather 170
>>>>>> degrees.
>>>>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light aircraft
>>>>>> )  I would say the single biggest improve came as a result of having the
>>>>>> radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth of tap
>>>>>> water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides do produce a
>>>>>> white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy waterflow if not block
>>>>>> off entire rows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the difference for
>>>>>> yourself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in the
>>>>>>> system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the air, and
>>>>>>> bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water ahead of the air? Why
>>>>>>> not raise the front? Years ago I had an "explosion" in the engine bay as I
>>>>>>> was putting down a city street. A giant white plume of "white". I thought
>>>>>>> the engine blew. When I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it was
>>>>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic that had
>>>>>>> worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and installed the motor, and he
>>>>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this baby to
>>>>>>> burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since. Obviously, the
>>>>>>> pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it worked perfectly. Another
>>>>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump, pump up
>>>>>>> the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting the radiator at
>>>>>>> the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes for the bubbles to rise. I
>>>>>>> guess this will be batted around forever. I do, however, like John
>>>>>>> Taphorn's article on cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative,
>>>>>>> even though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and overflow
>>>>>>> caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc.  and my blood pressure is
>>>>>>> synchronous with the water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me in an email
>>>>>>> that the only way his car will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>>>>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a dream
>>>>>>> (goal).
>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's enough
>>>>>>>> water in the system to allow the water pump to push water into the
>>>>>>>> block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the block and the
>>>>>>>> thermostat neck high enough to run over into the tube going away from
>>>>>>>> the engine no air pocket should be present in the engine. There will be
>>>>>>>> two air pockets. One in the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you
>>>>>>>> have one. If no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in
>>>>>>>> the thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
>>>>>>>> conventional way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is however a
>>>>>>>> way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount of air. Hence my
>>>>>>>> surprise when I over and over hear that it's the best way to fill the
>>>>>>>> system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it will
>>>>>>>> see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or parking on a
>>>>>>>> slope. There is no possibility that air would be trapped in the straight
>>>>>>>> under car tubes after that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>>>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And you're
>>>>>>>> driving!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much as
>>>>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to a new
>>>>>>>> Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.  He bought his
>>>>>>>> Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but solid Euro GTS, and
>>>>>>>> only paid $13K or something like that.  One side was beat up because it
>>>>>>>> had been parked in a fenced lot right against the fence, and the wind
>>>>>>>> had whipped the fence and battered the side of the car.  But the damage
>>>>>>>> was all rather trivial.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First thing he
>>>>>>>> did when he got it home was to change all the fluids--water and oil.  He
>>>>>>>> drained all the coolant, then just filled it up and topped it off until
>>>>>>>> the tank was full, on level ground.  He then closed the cap, and took
>>>>>>>> off across the Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to see how
>>>>>>>> fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because there's no
>>>>>>>> place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light so he just ran it up to
>>>>>>>> redline in 5th gear.  Having a great time, eyes on the road of course,
>>>>>>>> so he failed to notice that because he hadn't properly filled the
>>>>>>>> cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn the
>>>>>>>> importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing it has
>>>>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And the manual
>>>>>>>> directs you to do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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