[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
Jack Donahue
demongusta at me.com
Thu Apr 4 10:41:11 EDT 2013
Kirby
Can you explain how that works?
Jack
On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:36 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
> The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the manufacturer.
>
> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate.htm
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
>> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
>>
>>> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific 160 deg
>>> thermostats, only 180-192-195. Those in the know say we should always run the
>>> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no problems.
>>> Yeah, right.
>>>
>>> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new aluminum plate
>>> that replaces the brass one under the thermostat. This new aluminum plate has
>>> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump or thermostat
>>> doesn't have to be used. Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even Chevy
>>> thermostat. Also no water pump with the special bypass is needed. We'll see if
>>> any of this makes a difference. The new aluminum plate came from Dennis
>>> Quella. The small hole lets any air out of the block.
>>>
>>> Jim Gray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>>> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
>>> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>
>>> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content with their
>>> cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there. It's like, "what the
>>> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as suggested by
>>> some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate - and I only have a couple
>>> thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to try anything. I live in so. California,
>>> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes with the air
>>> on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm, - I,m screwed. I was in
>>> Austin for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me of I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played
>>> with cars my whole life, and cooling this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS NOT
>>> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white car without
>>> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic exhaust ( I
>>> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a 750 holly. No
>>> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just haven't hit the
>>> right button yet. I wish these cool running cars could be transported here and
>>> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple years. Fine,
>>> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run for a radiator
>>> cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to where I could blow all the
>>> liquid out, then hang the car by it's rear, and fill it. Bleeding the radiator
>>> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling it like
>>> that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain about air in the
>>> system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in the water pump. Now I'm down
>>> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've played around
>>> with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change easily, I'd like to try 160 -
>>> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I get an oil
>>> temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is relative to the coolant.
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators, changed
>>>> fans,
>>>>
>>>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and *still* have
>>>> problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>>>
>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked the car up
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>> the back to get the air out of the system….
>>>> Never had a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, well….
>>>>
>>>> FWIW,
>>>> Kirby
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> WTF? Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot water?
>>>>>
>>>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking up the
>>>>> rear. It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave our cars an
>>>>> overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator,
>>>>> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual electric
>>>>> fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100% antifreeze and 2/3
>>>>> distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water wetter coolant mix. I live in
>>>>> Savannah, Georgia where the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90%
>>>>> humidity.
>>>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would overheat would
>>>>> be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving the engine past 3,000
>>>>> rpms. It is all I can do to hit 180 and in more temporate weather 170
>>>>> degrees.
>>>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light aircraft
>>>>> ) I would say the single biggest improve came as a result of having the
>>>>> radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth of tap
>>>>> water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides do produce a
>>>>> white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy waterflow if not block
>>>>> off entire rows.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the difference for
>>>>> yourself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in the
>>>>>> system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the air, and
>>>>>> bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water ahead of the air? Why
>>>>>> not raise the front? Years ago I had an "explosion" in the engine bay as I
>>>>>> was putting down a city street. A giant white plume of "white". I thought
>>>>>> the engine blew. When I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it was
>>>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic that had
>>>>>> worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and installed the motor, and he
>>>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this baby to
>>>>>> burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since. Obviously, the
>>>>>> pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it worked perfectly. Another
>>>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump, pump up
>>>>>> the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting the radiator at
>>>>>> the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes for the bubbles to rise. I
>>>>>> guess this will be batted around forever. I do, however, like John
>>>>>> Taphorn's article on cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative,
>>>>>> even though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and overflow
>>>>>> caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc. and my blood pressure is
>>>>>> synchronous with the water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me in an email
>>>>>> that the only way his car will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>>>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a dream
>>>>>> (goal).
>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's enough
>>>>>>> water in the system to allow the water pump to push water into the
>>>>>>> block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the block and the
>>>>>>> thermostat neck high enough to run over into the tube going away from
>>>>>>> the engine no air pocket should be present in the engine. There will be
>>>>>>> two air pockets. One in the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you
>>>>>>> have one. If no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in
>>>>>>> the thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
>>>>>>> conventional way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is however a
>>>>>>> way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount of air. Hence my
>>>>>>> surprise when I over and over hear that it's the best way to fill the
>>>>>>> system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it will
>>>>>>> see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or parking on a
>>>>>>> slope. There is no possibility that air would be trapped in the straight
>>>>>>> under car tubes after that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No. Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine! And you're
>>>>>>> driving!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much as
>>>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to a new
>>>>>>> Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere. He bought his
>>>>>>> Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but solid Euro GTS, and
>>>>>>> only paid $13K or something like that. One side was beat up because it
>>>>>>> had been parked in a fenced lot right against the fence, and the wind
>>>>>>> had whipped the fence and battered the side of the car. But the damage
>>>>>>> was all rather trivial.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras. First thing he
>>>>>>> did when he got it home was to change all the fluids--water and oil. He
>>>>>>> drained all the coolant, then just filled it up and topped it off until
>>>>>>> the tank was full, on level ground. He then closed the cap, and took
>>>>>>> off across the Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac. Great guy, but a maniac. He wanted to see how
>>>>>>> fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because there's no
>>>>>>> place for cops to hide. Traffic was light so he just ran it up to
>>>>>>> redline in 5th gear. Having a great time, eyes on the road of course,
>>>>>>> so he failed to notice that because he hadn't properly filled the
>>>>>>> cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BOOM!!!!!! The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn the
>>>>>>> importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing it has
>>>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past. And the manual
>>>>>>> directs you to do it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
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