[DeTomaso] Another 408C on the dyno - TFS 2V heads and Wilkinson exhaust

Thu Dec 20 19:06:44 EST 2012

Dan,

Thanks for a ton of very useful data.   I have been running engine
simulations for a month or so now in prep for a future build, so it's great
to have a real life cross reference.

An interesting side note... the simulator claims that carb size upgrades
dont get you much once you have a 600cfm on there.  Manifolds and cam's
seem to make the most difference (assuming a good flowing head).  I'd love
to see if that plays out to be true on a real motor.

David

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Daniel C Jones
<daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Just thought I'd let you know the results of our initial tuning on a
> street 408
> cubic inch Cleveland Ford V8 that Dave McLain built using the TFS
> PowerPort 2V
> Cleveland heads for a Pantera owner in Denmark.  There were a few
> other engines in
> the queue so it took a while to get around to dyno testing this one but it
> was
> worth the wait.  The basic engine specs are:
>
>  408 cubic inch Cleveland Ford V8
>  TFS CNC PowerPort 225cc Cleveland cylinder heads (TFS-5160T004-C01)
>  production iron Cleveland block 4.030" bore
>  9.5:1 compression
>  Probe dished pistons
>  Scat 6 inch I-beam rods
>  Scat 4 inch stroke forged crank with Cleveland main bearing diameter
>  93 octane Mobil pump gas
>  Morel hydraulic roller lifters
>
> Dave flow benched the cylinder heads on his SuperFlo which is the most
> conservative
> of all the benches I've tested on (I've tested the same heads on both
> Dave's bench
> and another in town which flowed 20 CFM more):
>
>  Lift   Intake Exhaust
>         2.08"  1.60"
>  0.025   13.2   10.2
>  0.050   31.6   26.5
>  0.100   65.1   55.6
>  0.150   98.0   80.9?
>  0.200  138.0  110.9
>  0.250  173.6  138.4
>  0.300  204.9  160.8
>  0.350  235.4  176.8
>  0.400  258.8  193.7
>  0.450  282.1  207.7
>  0.500  295.0  214.9
>  0.550  308.0  217.0
>  0.600  318.6  218.9
>  0.650  328.4  221.6
>  0.700  323.1  224.3
>  0.750  -----  225.2
>
> Tested on Dave McLain's SuperFlow flow bench at 10" and converted to 28".
> Clayed intake radius but no exhaust pipe.  2.08" diameter intake valve,
> 1.60" exhaust.  Sounded smooth and stable through the tested lift range.
> Like the other Cleveland heads we've tested, there was no appreciable swirl
> until higher lift (0.500" and above).  Tested on the same bench, CHI 3V
> flowed around the same numbers (with the raised 3V intake ports).  Port
> dimensions for the TFS CNC 225 cc heads are:
>
>  Intake port:  2.195" high by 1.485" wide, 1.85" throat diameter
>  Exhaust port: 1.470" high by 1.540" wide, 1.40" throat diameter
>
> I designed the hydraulic roller camshaft to peak at 6000 RPM, making
> best average
> power between the 4000 and a shift point of 6500 RPM.  This power
> range works very
> well with the Pantera close ratio ZF transaxle.  I spec'd a couple of
> intake lobes
> for this engine, HR291/356 which has 0.356" lobe lift (0.616" valve
> lift with 1.73:1
> rocker ratio) and HR292/378 which has 0.378" lobe lift (0.654" valve lift).
> Dynomation predicted the higher lift lobe was worth a few HP but it wasn't
> clear
> at the time what the maximum lift of the supplied valve springs was so we
> went
> conservative and picked the lower lift lobe.  Turns out the version of
> the heads we
> purchased comes with springs with a maximum lift of 0.680" so either lobe
> should
> work.  The final cam specs are:
>
>  Bullet custom hydraulic roller FC291/298-HR9+2
>  HR291/356 intake lobess
>  HR298/340 exhaust lobes
>  236/240 degrees @ 0.050"
>  291/298 degrees seat duration
>  0.616"/0.588" lift with 1.73:1 roller rockers
>  109 LSA, installed 2 degrees advanced
>
> Initial testing was performed with a Holley 750, a Weiand X-CELerator
> 351C-2V
> single plane intake manifold (p/n 7516) that Dave had had done some plenum
> work
> on (welded in runner extensions) and a 1 inch HVH merge spacer:
>
>
> http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery2/v/hidden/dan/dan-cars/album04/album07/album08/Weiand_plenum_2.jpg
>
> Dave did a series of pulls to determine the best total ignition
> advance, starting
> at 33 degrees.  It picked up a bunch going to 30 degrees and picked up
> more going
> to 27 degrees.  24 degrees hurt HP and torque just a tiny bit so it looked
> like
> 25 to 26 degrees total was best.  Subsequent testing was at 26 degrees.
>  Such a
> low mean best spark is an indicator the chamber is very efficient.
> It also never
> lit up the knock sensor under load like many of the other cylinder heads
> we've
> tested.  We certainly could have gone up at least another point in
> compression.
>
> Several exhaust systems were tested with the following results (rounded to
> the
> nearest HP):
>
> 1. Wilkinson stainless steel Pantera shorty 4-into-1 headers and exhaust
> (2 1/4" OD) with stock appearing mufflers:
>
>  552 HP @ 6000 RPM
>  518 ft-lbs @ 4500 RPM
>
> That's really amazing power to be pushing through shorty Pantera headers
> and
> mufflers with 2 1/4" tail pipes.  Compare to the following test and
> the Wilkinson
> exhaust is worth 31 HP on this engine (perhaps more when we test the
> Funnelweb
> intake manifold and 950HP carb).  Given the stainless steel construction,
> low
> cost and HP increase, the Wilkinson exhaust are excellent pieces.
>
> 2. ANSA Euro GTS headers and exhaust
>
>  521 HP @ 6000 RPM
>  500 ft-lbs @ 4800 RPM
>
> These are the better flowing Euro GTS version of the Pantera ANSA mufflers
> and matching headers.  Down 31 HP and 18 ft-lbs to the Wilkinson version.
>
> 3. Mustang long tube headers without exhaust (no mufflers), specifically
> Hooker
> Competition headers (part number HOK-6920HKR) with 1 3/4" diameter by 27"
> long
> primaries, 3" diameter by 8" long collector with 12 inch long
> collector extensions
>
>  564 HP @ 5900 RPM
>  546 ft-lbs @ 4600 RPM
>
> 4. The above Hooker Mustang long tube headers with 3" inlet/outlet
> Magnaflow
> stainless steel mufflers.
>
>  555 HP @ 5900 RPM
>  535 ft-lbs @ 4800 RPM
>
> Only 3 HP peak more than the Wilkinson exhaust but 17 ft-lbs more peak
> torque due
> to the long primary headers.  Open headers were worth another 11 HP
> and 11 ft-lbs
> so I'd bet a cross-over would be worth some power when running mufflers.
>
> On all of these pulls, The torque curves were very wide and flat:
>
>
> http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery2/v/hidden/dan/dan-cars/album04/album07/album08/Weaind_Xcelerator_TFS_2V_heads_exhaust_testing.png
>
> Dave needs to get another customer's engine on the dyno but we hope to test
> a few intake manifolds.  In prior testing on a 393C iron Aussie 2V heads,
> the
> Weiand placed 3rd of the seven intakes tested with the tall Parker
> Funnelweb
> single plane making about 12 HP more at the top end without giving up
> anything
> down low (started pulls at 3000 RPM).   Makes me wish I'd sprung for the
> matching TFS single plane.
>
> Based upon results from an earlier 408C we did with similar cam timing,
> I'll
> wager this engine will pull 20 MPG on the highway at 70 MPH in a Pantera,
> too.
>
> I agree with Dave that these heads are very impressive, especially when you
> think about how low the 2V port entrances are.  Given the wide variety of
> intakes and exhausts available, they should work very well in a wide range
> of applications.
>
> With a taller single plane, the 950HP dyno carb, an exhaust cross-over,
> 950HP Holley, optimized exhaust, UPM's hydraulic roller lifter oil and
> maybe
> a bit more compression, this thing could be knocking on 600 HP.
>
> Dan Jones
>
> P.S.  Dave's wife stopped in just as he was making a pull and took a quick
> video which has been posted at http://youtu.be/5a6IqHUhxwk
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>