[DeTomaso] unions?

[gow2 at rc-tech.net]

Really? There is not enough time to address all the silly things you've
said here.




> first of all, the clintons are
> republicans dressed as donkeys.  they got their republican economics
> packages passed w/the help of republican congresses.  and the bottom
> fell out of the economy in september/october - a bit before anyone knew
> who was gonna be prez.  mccain made an a$$ of himself during the initial
> start of the crisis.  good economy we had under bush?!?  good, maybe
> for the few percent at the tom of the income ladder.  sucky for everyone
> else.  two unfunded wars and the bush tax cuts on top of
> banking/finance deregulation ensured the market collapse.  the largest
> deficit spending in history up to that point...
>
>
> the "stimulus" spending is a drop in the bucket in the debt that has
> recently been accumulated.  and, it has been used to start to shore up our
> infrastructure, and to keep unemployment from being a lot worse than it is
> today.  our infrastructure is literally falling apart at the seams.  how
> are we going to fix it w/more tax cuts, and more deregulation?  and tax
> cuts & deregulation are what got us into this mess - how is more of it
> gonna help fix things?  :>/ and expanded govt? are you kidding?  gwb w/his
> patriot act (oxymoron!) and dhs (another oxymoron!) have expanded the govt
> more than anyone!  and let's not forget his no child's behind left
> unscathed act, which mandated programs for the states and no money to fund
> them.  or the prescription drug act which was a gimme to the insurance and
> drug companies.
>
>
> i love how you attempt to distort what really went down.  :>/
>
> doug s.,
> #2602
> btw, hillary or not, walmart would be a second-rate biz today if it didn't
> make everything in china.  personally, i do not remember walmart pushing
> made in usa; but then again, i am and have always been afraid to go inside
> a walmart...
>
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>>From: GW <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>>To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>Cc: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>; "michael at michaelshortt.com"
>> <michael at michaelshortt.com>; de tomaso digest <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:31 AM
>>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions?
>>
>>It is nearly impossible to see where the unions stop and our government
>> starts.
>>
>>We all know the democrat housing bubble crashed this economy. Several
>> tried to stop it including Bush who tried 13x and brought it to a vote 2x
>> which was slapped down by the dems. But when did the bubble burst? When
>> Obama was seen as the obvious victor to the elections, stockholders began
>> draining the market. Their not dumb. They saw what was coming and it
>> became a game of who can get their money out fast before the markets
>> drop. The good economy we had under Bush was gone!
>>
>>There was a week where McCain gained momentum. If you look at that week
>> the market began to recover. As the excitement for McCain dropped and
>> obama became the obvious winner, the markets went into a nose dive.
>>
>>Do you remember a time when Walmart pushed "Made in the USA"? Do you
>> remember when it stopped? It stopped when Hillary Clinton got on Walmarts
>> board of directors. She set Walmart up with Chinese vendors and changed
>> the direction of Walmart and stopped the "Made in the USA" campaign.
>>
>>When Hillary was campaigning it was found one of her major backers were
>> the Chinese. When Hillary became secretary of state what was the first
>> thing she did? Hillary went to China to secure loans for the bail
>> outs...aka government expansion and union pensions. You can still see the
>> videos of Hillary in China. Hillary stood up at several meetings in China
>> and said "We are reseting relations" (A childish dig at Bush she kept
>> repeating at the time; remember the reset button she carried around) She
>> continued to say "We are no longer interested in your human rights
>> issues, we are just interested in securing funds for bail outs!"
>>
>>The liberals understand spending in the past has pulled bad economies up.
>> When they don't understand is what spending. During WWII much industry
>> was working for the government. The government pumped a huge amount of
>> money into the country for the war. When the war was over, industry had
>> to re-start for post war production but industry (corporations) had money
>> because of war funding. What happened next? We had an economic boom!!!
>>
>>In the 50's Eisenhower nearly bankrupting this country building highways.
>> But what did the money do? It went to corporations building
>> infrastructure but more importantly, it opened a door to commerce this
>> country never had. The highways opened the doors for companies nationwide
>> to do business like they never had before. This created the boom called
>> the Roaring 50's!
>>
>>It is common knowledge that wars (no there is no real comparison of the
>> Iraq conflict to a real war) and infrastructure expansion such as
>> highways both increase our national debt substantially but also kick
>> start the economy.
>>
>>The liberals see that and think spending money kick starts the economy
>> but look at what the liberals have done over the last few years? Expanded
>> government and shored up the union base. Much of the expanded government
>> went to states which not only expanded the state government but required
>> that when the stimulus money ran out in a year or two the states would
>> have to continue the funding!!! It is really a sly move. The government
>> spends a one time check to make your state government larger and then
>> expects the states to keep it larger when the government money runs out.
>> Expansion of government shifting the cost. Now the stimulous 2 obama is
>> touting it trying to shore up the states and unions longer so the states
>> don't drop the funding.
>>
>>The spending from WWII and from the highway system launched some of the
>> best economies this country ahs ever had. What did the stimulus spending
>> do? Shored up unions, expanded government, and stopped this economy in
>> it';s tracks. Instead of helping people and corporations create jobs, it
>> expected the corporations and and those who create jobs to pay more of
>> their fair share.
>>
>>In effect the stimulus not only burned a buttload of cash for no good
>> reason but it brought this economy to it's knees. Now we have debt our
>> children and grand children will never able to pay. There is no way we
>> can inflate our way out of what was spent this time around!!
>>
>>There is little if any discernible difference between unions and a
>> liberal government.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Ken Green wrote:
>>> Doug,
>>>          The auto workers scored billions in the government bailout of
>>> GM, and scored again on getting out of Nationalized Health care (AKA
>>> Obamacare).  Tenured union teachers get to keep their jobs unless they
>>> kill or rape a student.  It sounds like the government has sold out to
>>> the unions more than to corporations.  AND, Wall Street folks gave more
>>> to dems than to reps.           But I think the problem is BIG
>>> government, regardless of who is in the White House.  When the
>>> government spends money, the middle class gets screwed.
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>> Cc: de tomaso digest <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions? (was: Re: Something to shoot for (NPC))
>>>
>>> michael sez:
>>> 1. Unions were once upon a time a good thing, I think that time has
>>> passed.
>>> doug s. sez:
>>> - unfortunately, cuz government has sold out to the corporations -
>>> aiding and abetting their goals in item #'s 2 & 3 below, not regulating
>>> them for the benefit of all society - unions are one of the few tools
>>> left.
>>>
>>>
>>> michael sez:
>>> 2. Corporations exist to create wealth for shareholders.  It is
>>> management's sole duty to maximize profits, however they are not
>>> required to be good citizens or have any loyalty to our country. I feel
>>> this is a fundamental flaw and should be of prime consideration to
>>> those who invest personally and on behalf of others with pension funds,
>>> 401ks, etc.  3. Management should be compensated based on real profits,
>>> not valuations, or other means of manipulating numbers to look like
>>> income.  REAL MONEY.  I like a formula that is open for all to see.
>>> doug s. sez:
>>> - i agree w/the above items 2 & 3.  and i am ok w/it, too.  as long as
>>> there's something to keep them reined in.  the govt used to do it, but
>>> that's been effectively eliminated over the past 30 years.  now the
>>> govt is in the corporations' pockets; and there's no one left to
>>> control them...  :>/  certainly most of those who inwest are not gonna
>>> do it, or are ewen capable of doing it if they wanted to.  management,
>>> for the most part compensates itself totally unregulated - it's an
>>> incestuous little club, w/everyone sitting on everyone else's executive
>>> boards, scratching each other's backs, paying each other ludicrous
>>> amounts of money, and paying them even more when they get fired and are
>>> losing money.
>>>
>>>
>>> michael sez:
>>> 4. Union workers in many cases need a reality check.  There are dudes
>>> who work for GM who make $65.00 an hour to clean The bathroom because
>>> they have been doing it for 20 years.  WISE TF UP. A job has a value,
>>> period.  Just because you're too stupid, dumb or lazy to do anything
>>> else doesn't mean that your job is a career.  Either cross train, get
>>> an education or move on.   Just because you're still there doesn't make
>>> the original 15.00 an hour job any more valuable.
>>> doug s. sez:
>>> - of course no one should be making $65 an hour to clean the bathroom. 
>>> and, seriously, i don't think this is really what's happening.  i am
>>> sure there are a small minority of union folks at gm who are overpaid
>>> for what they do.  but, that's not the problem.  for the most part,
>>> unions simply help their members keep up w/inflation...  and i
>>> certainly believe that they would not be needed so much - if the
>>> government were able to better regulate corporations.
>>>
>>> of course any corporation will off-shore its work if it is allowed to
>>> have children work in sweat shops, allowed to have unsafe workplaces
>>> w/no health ins, no overtime, pay its workers $100/month instead of
>>> $100/day, no workmen's comp, no unemployment ins or social security,
>>> let miners breathe coal dust, etc etc, etc.  if the federal government
>>> does not put a stop to it, who will?!?  or do you think american
>>> workers should simply agree to accept these same working conditions
>>> here?  then we can be "competitive"!  yippee!  we can go back to the
>>> late 1800's!  yippee!  give the corporations more power, less
>>> regulation!  yippee!  you know, when the unions gained some power to
>>> help the workers?  we could go full circle!  :>/
>>>
>>>
>>> unfortunately, i see wery little in the govt to turn things around. 
>>> initially, barack talked a good game, so much so that the oligarchs
>>> started calling him a communist or a socialist.  many of his
>>> "conservative" detractors still do.  i wish!?!  he's sold out to big
>>> biz in a huge way - the banks, wall street, the insurance companies,
>>> the oil companies, the drug mfr's...  and his "opposition"?  all they
>>> want is to deregulate the corporations even more!?!  ya, it's all this
>>> "regulation" that caused the economic meltdown!?!  let the corporations
>>> have more power, less regulation, cut taxes even more!  ya, let's put
>>> out the fire w/gasoline!?!  :>/
>>>
>>>
>>> ymmv,
>>>
>>> doug s.,
>>> #2602
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>> To: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>
>>>> Cc: "detomaso at realbig.com" <detomaso at realbig.com>; "gow2 at rc-tech.net"
>>>> <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:22 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions? (was: Re: Something to shoot for
>>>> (NPC))
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doug, To be honest, I'm unsure of your position on the viability of
>>>> unions.
>>>> Let me be clear about my views.
>>>> 1. Unions were once upon a time a good thing, I think that time has
>>>> passed.
>>>> 2. Corporations exist to create wealth for shareholders.  It is
>>>> management's sole duty to maximize profits, however they are not
>>>> required to be good citizens or have any loyalty to our country. I
>>>> feel this is a fundamental flaw and should be of prime consideration
>>>> to those who invest personally and on behalf of others with pension
>>>> funds, 401ks, etc.  3. Management should be compensated based on real
>>>> profits, not valuations, or other means of manipulating numbers to
>>>> look like income.  REAL MONEY.  I like a formula that is open for all
>>>> to see.
>>>> 4. Union workers in many cases need a reality check.  There are dudes
>>>> who work for GM who make $65.00 an hour to clean The bathroom because
>>>> they have been doing it for 20 years.  WISE TF UP. A job has a value,
>>>> period.  Just because you're too stupid, dumb or lazy to do anything
>>>> else doesn't mean that your job is a career.  Either cross train, get
>>>> an education or move on.   Just because you're still there doesn't
>>>> make the original 15.00 an hour job any more valuable.
>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>
>>>>   
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