[DeTomaso] unions?

doug sedon sedond at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 31 19:00:19 EDT 2011


pot-kettle=black...


doug s.,
#2602


>________________________________
>From: "gow2 at rc-tech.net" <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>To: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>
>Cc: GW <gow2 at rc-tech.net>; Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>; de tomaso digest <detomaso at realbig.com>
>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 5:56 PM
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions?
>
>Really? There is not enough time to address all the silly things you've
>said here.
>
>
>
>
>> first of all, the clintons are
>> republicans dressed as donkeys.  they got their republican economics
>> packages passed w/the help of republican congresses.  and the bottom
>> fell out of the economy in september/october - a bit before anyone knew
>> who was gonna be prez.  mccain made an a$$ of himself during the initial
>> start of the crisis.  good economy we had under bush?!?  good, maybe
>> for the few percent at the tom of the income ladder.  sucky for everyone
>> else.  two unfunded wars and the bush tax cuts on top of
>> banking/finance deregulation ensured the market collapse.  the largest
>> deficit spending in history up to that point...
>>
>>
>> the "stimulus" spending is a drop in the bucket in the debt that has
>> recently been accumulated.  and, it has been used to start to shore up our
>> infrastructure, and to keep unemployment from being a lot worse than it is
>> today.  our infrastructure is literally falling apart at the seams.  how
>> are we going to fix it w/more tax cuts, and more deregulation?  and tax
>> cuts & deregulation are what got us into this mess - how is more of it
>> gonna help fix things?  :>/ and expanded govt? are you kidding?  gwb w/his
>> patriot act (oxymoron!) and dhs (another oxymoron!) have expanded the govt
>> more than anyone!  and let's not forget his no child's behind left
>> unscathed act, which mandated programs for the states and no money to fund
>> them.  or the prescription drug act which was a gimme to the insurance and
>> drug companies.
>>
>>
>> i love how you attempt to distort what really went down.  :>/
>>
>> doug s.,
>> #2602
>> btw, hillary or not, walmart would be a second-rate biz today if it didn't
>> make everything in china.  personally, i do not remember walmart pushing
>> made in usa; but then again, i am and have always been afraid to go inside
>> a walmart...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>>From: GW <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>>>To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>>Cc: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>; "michael at michaelshortt.com"
>>> <michael at michaelshortt.com>; de tomaso digest <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:31 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions?
>>>
>>>It is nearly impossible to see where the unions stop and our government
>>> starts.
>>>
>>>We all know the democrat housing bubble crashed this economy. Several
>>> tried to stop it including Bush who tried 13x and brought it to a vote 2x
>>> which was slapped down by the dems. But when did the bubble burst? When
>>> Obama was seen as the obvious victor to the elections, stockholders began
>>> draining the market. Their not dumb. They saw what was coming and it
>>> became a game of who can get their money out fast before the markets
>>> drop. The good economy we had under Bush was gone!
>>>
>>>There was a week where McCain gained momentum. If you look at that week
>>> the market began to recover. As the excitement for McCain dropped and
>>> obama became the obvious winner, the markets went into a nose dive.
>>>
>>>Do you remember a time when Walmart pushed "Made in the USA"? Do you
>>> remember when it stopped? It stopped when Hillary Clinton got on Walmarts
>>> board of directors. She set Walmart up with Chinese vendors and changed
>>> the direction of Walmart and stopped the "Made in the USA" campaign.
>>>
>>>When Hillary was campaigning it was found one of her major backers were
>>> the Chinese. When Hillary became secretary of state what was the first
>>> thing she did? Hillary went to China to secure loans for the bail
>>> outs...aka government expansion and union pensions. You can still see the
>>> videos of Hillary in China. Hillary stood up at several meetings in China
>>> and said "We are reseting relations" (A childish dig at Bush she kept
>>> repeating at the time; remember the reset button she carried around) She
>>> continued to say "We are no longer interested in your human rights
>>> issues, we are just interested in securing funds for bail outs!"
>>>
>>>The liberals understand spending in the past has pulled bad economies up.
>>> When they don't understand is what spending. During WWII much industry
>>> was working for the government. The government pumped a huge amount of
>>> money into the country for the war. When the war was over, industry had
>>> to re-start for post war production but industry (corporations) had money
>>> because of war funding. What happened next? We had an economic boom!!!
>>>
>>>In the 50's Eisenhower nearly bankrupting this country building highways.
>>> But what did the money do? It went to corporations building
>>> infrastructure but more importantly, it opened a door to commerce this
>>> country never had. The highways opened the doors for companies nationwide
>>> to do business like they never had before. This created the boom called
>>> the Roaring 50's!
>>>
>>>It is common knowledge that wars (no there is no real comparison of the
>>> Iraq conflict to a real war) and infrastructure expansion such as
>>> highways both increase our national debt substantially but also kick
>>> start the economy.
>>>
>>>The liberals see that and think spending money kick starts the economy
>>> but look at what the liberals have done over the last few years? Expanded
>>> government and shored up the union base. Much of the expanded government
>>> went to states which not only expanded the state government but required
>>> that when the stimulus money ran out in a year or two the states would
>>> have to continue the funding!!! It is really a sly move. The government
>>> spends a one time check to make your state government larger and then
>>> expects the states to keep it larger when the government money runs out.
>>> Expansion of government shifting the cost. Now the stimulous 2 obama is
>>> touting it trying to shore up the states and unions longer so the states
>>> don't drop the funding.
>>>
>>>The spending from WWII and from the highway system launched some of the
>>> best economies this country ahs ever had. What did the stimulus spending
>>> do? Shored up unions, expanded government, and stopped this economy in
>>> it';s tracks. Instead of helping people and corporations create jobs, it
>>> expected the corporations and and those who create jobs to pay more of
>>> their fair share.
>>>
>>>In effect the stimulus not only burned a buttload of cash for no good
>>> reason but it brought this economy to it's knees. Now we have debt our
>>> children and grand children will never able to pay. There is no way we
>>> can inflate our way out of what was spent this time around!!
>>>
>>>There is little if any discernible difference between unions and a
>>> liberal government.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ken Green wrote:
>>>> Doug,
>>>>          The auto workers scored billions in the government bailout of
>>>> GM, and scored again on getting out of Nationalized Health care (AKA
>>>> Obamacare).  Tenured union teachers get to keep their jobs unless they
>>>> kill or rape a student.  It sounds like the government has sold out to
>>>> the unions more than to corporations.  AND, Wall Street folks gave more
>>>> to dems than to reps.           But I think the problem is BIG
>>>> government, regardless of who is in the White House.  When the
>>>> government spends money, the middle class gets screwed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>>> Cc: de tomaso digest <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions? (was: Re: Something to shoot for (NPC))
>>>>
>>>> michael sez:
>>>> 1. Unions were once upon a time a good thing, I think that time has
>>>> passed.
>>>> doug s. sez:
>>>> - unfortunately, cuz government has sold out to the corporations -
>>>> aiding and abetting their goals in item #'s 2 & 3 below, not regulating
>>>> them for the benefit of all society - unions are one of the few tools
>>>> left.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> michael sez:
>>>> 2. Corporations exist to create wealth for shareholders.  It is
>>>> management's sole duty to maximize profits, however they are not
>>>> required to be good citizens or have any loyalty to our country. I feel
>>>> this is a fundamental flaw and should be of prime consideration to
>>>> those who invest personally and on behalf of others with pension funds,
>>>> 401ks, etc.  3. Management should be compensated based on real profits,
>>>> not valuations, or other means of manipulating numbers to look like
>>>> income.  REAL MONEY.  I like a formula that is open for all to see.
>>>> doug s. sez:
>>>> - i agree w/the above items 2 & 3.  and i am ok w/it, too.  as long as
>>>> there's something to keep them reined in.  the govt used to do it, but
>>>> that's been effectively eliminated over the past 30 years.  now the
>>>> govt is in the corporations' pockets; and there's no one left to
>>>> control them...  :>/  certainly most of those who inwest are not gonna
>>>> do it, or are ewen capable of doing it if they wanted to.  management,
>>>> for the most part compensates itself totally unregulated - it's an
>>>> incestuous little club, w/everyone sitting on everyone else's executive
>>>> boards, scratching each other's backs, paying each other ludicrous
>>>> amounts of money, and paying them even more when they get fired and are
>>>> losing money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> michael sez:
>>>> 4. Union workers in many cases need a reality check.  There are dudes
>>>> who work for GM who make $65.00 an hour to clean The bathroom because
>>>> they have been doing it for 20 years.  WISE TF UP. A job has a value,
>>>> period.  Just because you're too stupid, dumb or lazy to do anything
>>>> else doesn't mean that your job is a career.  Either cross train, get
>>>> an education or move on.   Just because you're still there doesn't make
>>>> the original 15.00 an hour job any more valuable.
>>>> doug s. sez:
>>>> - of course no one should be making $65 an hour to clean the bathroom. 
>>>> and, seriously, i don't think this is really what's happening.  i am
>>>> sure there are a small minority of union folks at gm who are overpaid
>>>> for what they do.  but, that's not the problem.  for the most part,
>>>> unions simply help their members keep up w/inflation...  and i
>>>> certainly believe that they would not be needed so much - if the
>>>> government were able to better regulate corporations.
>>>>
>>>> of course any corporation will off-shore its work if it is allowed to
>>>> have children work in sweat shops, allowed to have unsafe workplaces
>>>> w/no health ins, no overtime, pay its workers $100/month instead of
>>>> $100/day, no workmen's comp, no unemployment ins or social security,
>>>> let miners breathe coal dust, etc etc, etc.  if the federal government
>>>> does not put a stop to it, who will?!?  or do you think american
>>>> workers should simply agree to accept these same working conditions
>>>> here?  then we can be "competitive"!  yippee!  we can go back to the
>>>> late 1800's!  yippee!  give the corporations more power, less
>>>> regulation!  yippee!  you know, when the unions gained some power to
>>>> help the workers?  we could go full circle!  :>/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> unfortunately, i see wery little in the govt to turn things around. 
>>>> initially, barack talked a good game, so much so that the oligarchs
>>>> started calling him a communist or a socialist.  many of his
>>>> "conservative" detractors still do.  i wish!?!  he's sold out to big
>>>> biz in a huge way - the banks, wall street, the insurance companies,
>>>> the oil companies, the drug mfr's...  and his "opposition"?  all they
>>>> want is to deregulate the corporations even more!?!  ya, it's all this
>>>> "regulation" that caused the economic meltdown!?!  let the corporations
>>>> have more power, less regulation, cut taxes even more!  ya, let's put
>>>> out the fire w/gasoline!?!  :>/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ymmv,
>>>>
>>>> doug s.,
>>>> #2602
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Cc: "detomaso at realbig.com" <detomaso at realbig.com>; "gow2 at rc-tech.net"
>>>>> <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:22 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions? (was: Re: Something to shoot for
>>>>> (NPC))
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug, To be honest, I'm unsure of your position on the viability of
>>>>> unions.
>>>>> Let me be clear about my views.
>>>>> 1. Unions were once upon a time a good thing, I think that time has
>>>>> passed.
>>>>> 2. Corporations exist to create wealth for shareholders.  It is
>>>>> management's sole duty to maximize profits, however they are not
>>>>> required to be good citizens or have any loyalty to our country. I
>>>>> feel this is a fundamental flaw and should be of prime consideration
>>>>> to those who invest personally and on behalf of others with pension
>>>>> funds, 401ks, etc.  3. Management should be compensated based on real
>>>>> profits, not valuations, or other means of manipulating numbers to
>>>>> look like income.  REAL MONEY.  I like a formula that is open for all
>>>>> to see.
>>>>> 4. Union workers in many cases need a reality check.  There are dudes
>>>>> who work for GM who make $65.00 an hour to clean The bathroom because
>>>>> they have been doing it for 20 years.  WISE TF UP. A job has a value,
>>>>> period.  Just because you're too stupid, dumb or lazy to do anything
>>>>> else doesn't mean that your job is a career.  Either cross train, get
>>>>> an education or move on.   Just because you're still there doesn't
>>>>> make the original 15.00 an hour job any more valuable.
>>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>>
>>>>>   
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