[DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection

Dave Aument dmaument at comcast.net
Thu Oct 6 18:44:08 EDT 2011 

interesting read ... my F9 still has all the smoke in it.   Dave



On Oct 6, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:

> Which allows me to segue into a....  Carb Man strikes again! (in honor of
> Bill Lewis)
> 
> As Mikael stated, sometimes it's the stupid stuff. And, never one to shirk
> from showing how stupid things and my stupidity can work together, here's a
> story that resolved itself last night.
> 
> KInda' long, so delete if you're bored with all this EFI stuff.
> 
> Background
> As many of you know, I installed a Haltech F9a IR EFI system on my 377
> Cleveland Pantera way back in 2000 and have been completely happy with it.
> Yes, Roland. I considered it 100%.
> :-)
> 
> It was a complete system that Dennis Quella used to sell back then. It came
> with a factory built harness, fuel pump, filter, hoses and all the goodies
> to install it. Even instructions and a start up map! It took me about a week
> to install.
> 
> Now, remember that statement above... 'factory built harness'.
> 
> Yes, the system was a fuel only ECU and I still used a distributor. Yes, it
> took me awhile to learn how to tune it (it was my first attempt at EFI), but
> after doing a 'seat of the pants' tuning for quite awhile driving to work
> and back, I was happy. But, after nagging from all and sundry, I took it to
> a dyno because I 'really should do that'. We couldn't get anything more out
> of it. I was happy with my tuning, needless to say. I wrote up my experience
> with the installation back then and posted it here on this list.
> 
> Fast forward. I built a new engine for the car (long story why, but not
> relevant). Cast iron Cleveland, 4V heads, same EFI, etc. etc. The only thing
> I changed was the cam. A Comp Cams solid roller. Desktop Dyno says it'll do
> 560HP. Driving it what little I have so far, I'd believe it. My Pantera has
> never been like this!
> (Also slightly embarrassing... I have a GT40 that dyno'd at 540HP with
> 427ci. A 'little old 377 Cleveland' does more? Time for a new cam in the
> GT40, it seems.)
> 
> Started the engine some time ago and was getting things in order when the
> old Haltech ECU decided to blow a fuse, but not before letting ALL the smoke
> out. Finding a replacement 15 year old technology ECU seemed impossible
> (although a couple magically appeared on eBay and Craigslist once I stopped
> looking...).
> 
> I bought an Electromotive TEC GT off of eBay and got a good deal.
> Electromotive confirmed there was nothing wrong with it. So, I proceeded to
> cut the sensor wires off the old ECU, removed the ECU and remaining harness
> and spliced in the new ECU and its new harness with the original wiring.
> Pretty straight forward. After all, I did the system on my original Pantera,
> I did the one on my GT40, I helped with Don Franck's installation...
> 
> I had issues starting it... turned out it was operator error. I wasn't
> throwing enough fuel at it for start up. For you carb guys.... I didn't have
> the choke closed enough. Once started...
> 
> I really couldn't get the engine 'right'. I could make adjustments, things
> would change, but not in the way I expected. Then, sitting there staring at
> the laptop screen with the engine off, I realized that my MAP sensor was
> reading 25kpa. It should be 101kpa. After all, that's atmospheric pressure
> that we live in and breathe.
> 
> OK, no problem. My 1 bar MAP sensor of 11 years is bad. I called yesterday
> and order a new one.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm discussing this strange failure with Mike Trusty and he
> says...
> 
> 'Do me a favor. While you're waiting for the new sensor, go home tonight and
> check the sensor out of the car and also check the voltages at the plug.'
> 
> I already checked the voltages...
> 
> 'Please do it again.'
> 
> So, last night, I pulled the MAP sensor out of the car and wired it up to a
> separate circuit on the ECU and put a DVM on the output. Damn... it should
> be reading about 4.8V. It was reading 4.74V. Nothing wrong with the
> sensor...
> 
> Check voltages on the plug at the manifold. 5V. Yep. No problem.
> Then, while standing there wondering what's going on, I looked at the other
> plug in my hand that I used for the trial test and then looked at the plug
> on the car. The orange wire (supposed to be 5V) and the black wire (Ground)
> were reversed! WTF?
> 
> I check the old Haltech harness wiring diagram. Yep. Orange is 5V, black is
> ground. I check my new wiring from the ECU to the old wiring. Yep, I've got
> the new ECU 5V spliced to the orange wire and a ground wire to the black
> wire. It should be fine.
> 
> But, going back to the plug again... Of all things.... the 'factory wired
> harness' had the MAP sensor wired up backwards! I pushed the pins out of the
> plug and swapped them, plugged the sensor back in and everything is working
> as it is supposed to. I have 95kpa with the engine off. The engine started
> immediately, I had to take a lot of fuel out of it because now it was
> running rich. Hey, the MAP sensor isn't reading 'backwards' anymore.
> 
> Now, many will question... why didn't you have a problem before?
> 
> Because the old Haltech system was using the MAP sensor to only compensate
> for barometric pressure. The Haltech only worked off of the throttle
> position sensor. Alpha N, as Dan talked about. It could use one or the
> other, but not both. So I always ran it with just the TPS as input.
> 
> So, even if the MAP sensor was reading 'backwards', the ECU didn't care and
> I didn't care since barometric pressure is pretty constant and changes very
> little and I compensated in the fuel tables and the car ran just peachy. If
> I did notice the pressure was low, I can't remember that I did and obviously
> didn't care at the time, even if I did!
> 
> But with this new ECU, I built a small vacuum 'plenum' and ran 4 vacuum
> tubes to it off the TWM throttle bodies and connected the MAP sensor to that
> since the TEC GT can handle both manifold pressure and throttle position.
> This is now set up the same as my GT40.
> 
> So, another problem, that really shouldn't have been a problem, solved.
> 
> I get my new MAP sensor tomorrow. It will be a spare on the shelf.
> 
> Thanks to Mike, I was convinced to go back to the basics and check things
> that I thought or assumed should be OK. Would I have found it eventually?
> Sure. The moment I plugged in the new sensor and it worked the same, all
> logic says that there has to be a problem somewhere else.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if anyone else has the old Haltech system and
> could go and check to see if their harness is wired correctly. It could
> explain a lot of things... Especially if they are using manifold pressure
> instead of throttle position.
> 
> NO! I still don't want a carburetor! I absolutely love the fact that I can
> use a more radical camshaft and still have plenty of low end and mid-range
> response.
> 
> That's the end of my entertainment today.... We live and learn.
> 
> FWIW,
> Kirby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 20:05, Rich <hoppe1 at cox.net> wrote:
> 
>> Ok
>> I don't respond very often.
>> I have an electromotive tec 3 unit in one of my cars.
>> I wanted to learn about EFI so that is why I did it.
>> I have to say one car I built with a carb ran good from the first day I
>> started the engine.
>> It took three different EFI systems for me to get my car running to where I
>> am.
>> I had it on a dyno for a week.  Ouch!
>> Is it perfect? -- no.
>> If you want EFI and not a learning experience-- have a vendor do it.
>> I wanted to learn the new technology and just like in the 60's ( yeah I am
>> old) I had to learn the hard way with carbs and points and cams .....
>> I am glad I did it.   I learned a lot an now feel I am even knowledgeable
>> to
>> how new cars run.
>> After the EFI experience, I now have a lot more respect for carbs.  They
>> really deal with a lot of engine changes.
>> The precise system of EFI has a hard time with the programing to meet a
>> specific engine needs that make it painfull to get right.
>> Carbs are a lot easier and so is a pencil and paper compared to learning a
>> computer.
>> But it is the age we live in.
>> Rich Hoppe
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Steve Hawkins
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 3:36 PM
>> To: 'Roland Jaeckel' ; 'Bill Lewis' ; detomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
>> 
>> You would be wrong.
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Roland Jaeckel
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:41 AM
>> To: Bill Lewis; detomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
>> 
>> 
>> That's why i have vintage cars. They still use technology, i can fix
>> myself..
>> I don't think, that there is any Pantera with a cleveland out there with a
>> 100% functional fuel injection.
>> 100% means, it has to work like a proper tuned new carb.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill Lewis" <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
>> To: <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 4:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> CARB MAN can now go nationwide!    HA  HA  HA  HAAAAAA!!!!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:13:07 -0400
>>>> From: cengles at cox.net
>>>> To: justingreisberg at hotmail.com
>>>> CC: detomaso at realbig.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dear Justin,
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for sharing your tale of EFI woe. It sounds like the nightmare
>>>> I
>>>> have feared I would suffer if I took the plunge. I know that these "bolt
>>>> on" EFI systems are out there. I know that they supposedly work. I know
>>>> that techno savvy owners have functioning systems that are more
>>>> complicated than the bolt on versions.
>>>> 
>>>> I also know that the old Holley Pro-jection system didn't work well.
>>>> I
>>>> know of a Pantera owner in the northwest that pursued EFI on his 351C
>>>> with frustrating results I know of a Pantera owner in OKC with EFI and
>>>> lots of driveability problems. These problems can also be found on
>> carbs,
>> 
>>>> I know, but the PITA factor and the cost of screwing around with EFI
>>>> versus carbs persuades me to stick with carbs for the near and
>>>> intermediate future.
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah. I am a Luddite in this regard.
>>>> 
>>>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---- Justin Greisberg <justingreisberg at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Everyone might be sick by now of hearing my ongoing troubles with
>>>>> EFI,
>>>>> but I am hoping I can help save someone else the pain. $2500, 2 years
>>>>> of tuning, well over 100 miles of driving a car in circles around the
>>>>> block. Have come to a point where problem can not be fixed by me. I
>>>>> have professional products retrotek powerjection 1 system. Older
>> system
>> 
>>>>> (2 years) but the techs at the company can not offer me any help. Can
>>>>> not fix driveability issues (goes way lean under mild acceleration, so
>>>>> accelerating from a stop light leads to severe bogging and just about
>>>>> stalling in the middle of an intersection.) I have asked for a refund
>>>>> or a free upgrade to their new system, powerjection 3, so that maybe
>>>>> they can provide better tech support (which would be a downgrade since
>>>>> new system is cheaper than old system), but they stopped returning my
>>>>> calls.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have a 351 cleveland with CHI heads, roller cam, CHI intake.
>>>>> makes
>>>>> 8-12 inches vacuum at idle, which makes it harder for fuel injection
>>>>> system to work.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I now am throwing away the entire system and starting over with a
>>>>> carb.
>>>>> Have to redo entire fuel system to non-EFI pump. close to $1000 to
>>>>> spend on carb and fuel pump and plumbing now. Totally disgusted. I am
>>>>> not made of money, and my hobby has become a source of endless stress.
>>>>> The EFI was supposed to make cold starting easier, but never worked
>>>>> properly. Was supposed to just start right up when you turn the key.
>>>>> well, sometimes it does. cold idling was supposed to be better than an
>>>>> electric choke. Doesn't do it, though. Was supposed to make driving
>>>>> better, but just fouled multiple spark plugs and totally carbon fouled
>>>>> the combustion chambers of my new heads and engine. Was supposed to be
>>>>> easily tuneable by computer, but not so easy, even for a knowledgeable
>>>>> person like me. If anyone has questions about these issues, feel free
>>>>> to ask me, since I understand these issues well. It is just that this
>>>>> system doesn't work as designed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I know others have found some success with these systems, but I
>>>>> strongly recommend staying away. Others have said I should just find a
>>>>> tuner - but I don't know how much more time I can give this. I have a
>>>>> job, and taking a day off from work to go to some tuner (flatbed the
>>>>> car who knows where!) becomes an expensive option for a system that is
>>>>> clearly advertised as just put it on and drive! And if the techs at
>> the
>> 
>>>>> company can't fix it, then why would anyone else be able to???
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anyone want to buy a slightly used EFI system? for sale, cheap? NO
>>>>> REFUNDS justin
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