[DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Thu Oct 6 18:45:57 EDT 2011
And is your MAP sensor wired backwards?
:-)
You're using TPS only, right?
(Man, it's been few years, huh?)
On Oct 6, 2011, at 5:44 PM, Dave Aument wrote:
> interesting read ... my F9 still has all the smoke in it. Dave
>
>
>
> On Oct 6, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
>
>> Which allows me to segue into a.... Carb Man strikes again! (in honor of
>> Bill Lewis)
>>
>> As Mikael stated, sometimes it's the stupid stuff. And, never one to shirk
>> from showing how stupid things and my stupidity can work together, here's a
>> story that resolved itself last night.
>>
>> KInda' long, so delete if you're bored with all this EFI stuff.
>>
>> Background
>> As many of you know, I installed a Haltech F9a IR EFI system on my 377
>> Cleveland Pantera way back in 2000 and have been completely happy with it.
>> Yes, Roland. I considered it 100%.
>> :-)
>>
>> It was a complete system that Dennis Quella used to sell back then. It came
>> with a factory built harness, fuel pump, filter, hoses and all the goodies
>> to install it. Even instructions and a start up map! It took me about a week
>> to install.
>>
>> Now, remember that statement above... 'factory built harness'.
>>
>> Yes, the system was a fuel only ECU and I still used a distributor. Yes, it
>> took me awhile to learn how to tune it (it was my first attempt at EFI), but
>> after doing a 'seat of the pants' tuning for quite awhile driving to work
>> and back, I was happy. But, after nagging from all and sundry, I took it to
>> a dyno because I 'really should do that'. We couldn't get anything more out
>> of it. I was happy with my tuning, needless to say. I wrote up my experience
>> with the installation back then and posted it here on this list.
>>
>> Fast forward. I built a new engine for the car (long story why, but not
>> relevant). Cast iron Cleveland, 4V heads, same EFI, etc. etc. The only thing
>> I changed was the cam. A Comp Cams solid roller. Desktop Dyno says it'll do
>> 560HP. Driving it what little I have so far, I'd believe it. My Pantera has
>> never been like this!
>> (Also slightly embarrassing... I have a GT40 that dyno'd at 540HP with
>> 427ci. A 'little old 377 Cleveland' does more? Time for a new cam in the
>> GT40, it seems.)
>>
>> Started the engine some time ago and was getting things in order when the
>> old Haltech ECU decided to blow a fuse, but not before letting ALL the smoke
>> out. Finding a replacement 15 year old technology ECU seemed impossible
>> (although a couple magically appeared on eBay and Craigslist once I stopped
>> looking...).
>>
>> I bought an Electromotive TEC GT off of eBay and got a good deal.
>> Electromotive confirmed there was nothing wrong with it. So, I proceeded to
>> cut the sensor wires off the old ECU, removed the ECU and remaining harness
>> and spliced in the new ECU and its new harness with the original wiring.
>> Pretty straight forward. After all, I did the system on my original Pantera,
>> I did the one on my GT40, I helped with Don Franck's installation...
>>
>> I had issues starting it... turned out it was operator error. I wasn't
>> throwing enough fuel at it for start up. For you carb guys.... I didn't have
>> the choke closed enough. Once started...
>>
>> I really couldn't get the engine 'right'. I could make adjustments, things
>> would change, but not in the way I expected. Then, sitting there staring at
>> the laptop screen with the engine off, I realized that my MAP sensor was
>> reading 25kpa. It should be 101kpa. After all, that's atmospheric pressure
>> that we live in and breathe.
>>
>> OK, no problem. My 1 bar MAP sensor of 11 years is bad. I called yesterday
>> and order a new one.
>>
>> In the meantime, I'm discussing this strange failure with Mike Trusty and he
>> says...
>>
>> 'Do me a favor. While you're waiting for the new sensor, go home tonight and
>> check the sensor out of the car and also check the voltages at the plug.'
>>
>> I already checked the voltages...
>>
>> 'Please do it again.'
>>
>> So, last night, I pulled the MAP sensor out of the car and wired it up to a
>> separate circuit on the ECU and put a DVM on the output. Damn... it should
>> be reading about 4.8V. It was reading 4.74V. Nothing wrong with the
>> sensor...
>>
>> Check voltages on the plug at the manifold. 5V. Yep. No problem.
>> Then, while standing there wondering what's going on, I looked at the other
>> plug in my hand that I used for the trial test and then looked at the plug
>> on the car. The orange wire (supposed to be 5V) and the black wire (Ground)
>> were reversed! WTF?
>>
>> I check the old Haltech harness wiring diagram. Yep. Orange is 5V, black is
>> ground. I check my new wiring from the ECU to the old wiring. Yep, I've got
>> the new ECU 5V spliced to the orange wire and a ground wire to the black
>> wire. It should be fine.
>>
>> But, going back to the plug again... Of all things.... the 'factory wired
>> harness' had the MAP sensor wired up backwards! I pushed the pins out of the
>> plug and swapped them, plugged the sensor back in and everything is working
>> as it is supposed to. I have 95kpa with the engine off. The engine started
>> immediately, I had to take a lot of fuel out of it because now it was
>> running rich. Hey, the MAP sensor isn't reading 'backwards' anymore.
>>
>> Now, many will question... why didn't you have a problem before?
>>
>> Because the old Haltech system was using the MAP sensor to only compensate
>> for barometric pressure. The Haltech only worked off of the throttle
>> position sensor. Alpha N, as Dan talked about. It could use one or the
>> other, but not both. So I always ran it with just the TPS as input.
>>
>> So, even if the MAP sensor was reading 'backwards', the ECU didn't care and
>> I didn't care since barometric pressure is pretty constant and changes very
>> little and I compensated in the fuel tables and the car ran just peachy. If
>> I did notice the pressure was low, I can't remember that I did and obviously
>> didn't care at the time, even if I did!
>>
>> But with this new ECU, I built a small vacuum 'plenum' and ran 4 vacuum
>> tubes to it off the TWM throttle bodies and connected the MAP sensor to that
>> since the TEC GT can handle both manifold pressure and throttle position.
>> This is now set up the same as my GT40.
>>
>> So, another problem, that really shouldn't have been a problem, solved.
>>
>> I get my new MAP sensor tomorrow. It will be a spare on the shelf.
>>
>> Thanks to Mike, I was convinced to go back to the basics and check things
>> that I thought or assumed should be OK. Would I have found it eventually?
>> Sure. The moment I plugged in the new sensor and it worked the same, all
>> logic says that there has to be a problem somewhere else.
>>
>> I'd be interested to know if anyone else has the old Haltech system and
>> could go and check to see if their harness is wired correctly. It could
>> explain a lot of things... Especially if they are using manifold pressure
>> instead of throttle position.
>>
>> NO! I still don't want a carburetor! I absolutely love the fact that I can
>> use a more radical camshaft and still have plenty of low end and mid-range
>> response.
>>
>> That's the end of my entertainment today.... We live and learn.
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 20:05, Rich <hoppe1 at cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok
>>> I don't respond very often.
>>> I have an electromotive tec 3 unit in one of my cars.
>>> I wanted to learn about EFI so that is why I did it.
>>> I have to say one car I built with a carb ran good from the first day I
>>> started the engine.
>>> It took three different EFI systems for me to get my car running to where I
>>> am.
>>> I had it on a dyno for a week. Ouch!
>>> Is it perfect? -- no.
>>> If you want EFI and not a learning experience-- have a vendor do it.
>>> I wanted to learn the new technology and just like in the 60's ( yeah I am
>>> old) I had to learn the hard way with carbs and points and cams .....
>>> I am glad I did it. I learned a lot an now feel I am even knowledgeable
>>> to
>>> how new cars run.
>>> After the EFI experience, I now have a lot more respect for carbs. They
>>> really deal with a lot of engine changes.
>>> The precise system of EFI has a hard time with the programing to meet a
>>> specific engine needs that make it painfull to get right.
>>> Carbs are a lot easier and so is a pencil and paper compared to learning a
>>> computer.
>>> But it is the age we live in.
>>> Rich Hoppe
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Steve Hawkins
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 3:36 PM
>>> To: 'Roland Jaeckel' ; 'Bill Lewis' ; detomaso at realbig.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
>>>
>>> You would be wrong.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Roland Jaeckel
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:41 AM
>>> To: Bill Lewis; detomaso at realbig.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
>>>
>>>
>>> That's why i have vintage cars. They still use technology, i can fix
>>> myself..
>>> I don't think, that there is any Pantera with a cleveland out there with a
>>> 100% functional fuel injection.
>>> 100% means, it has to work like a proper tuned new carb.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bill Lewis" <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
>>> To: <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 4:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> CARB MAN can now go nationwide! HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:13:07 -0400
>>>>> From: cengles at cox.net
>>>>> To: justingreisberg at hotmail.com
>>>>> CC: detomaso at realbig.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Justin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for sharing your tale of EFI woe. It sounds like the nightmare
>>>>> I
>>>>> have feared I would suffer if I took the plunge. I know that these "bolt
>>>>> on" EFI systems are out there. I know that they supposedly work. I know
>>>>> that techno savvy owners have functioning systems that are more
>>>>> complicated than the bolt on versions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also know that the old Holley Pro-jection system didn't work well.
>>>>> I
>>>>> know of a Pantera owner in the northwest that pursued EFI on his 351C
>>>>> with frustrating results I know of a Pantera owner in OKC with EFI and
>>>>> lots of driveability problems. These problems can also be found on
>>> carbs,
>>>
>>>>> I know, but the PITA factor and the cost of screwing around with EFI
>>>>> versus carbs persuades me to stick with carbs for the near and
>>>>> intermediate future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah. I am a Luddite in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Justin Greisberg <justingreisberg at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone might be sick by now of hearing my ongoing troubles with
>>>>>> EFI,
>>>>>> but I am hoping I can help save someone else the pain. $2500, 2 years
>>>>>> of tuning, well over 100 miles of driving a car in circles around the
>>>>>> block. Have come to a point where problem can not be fixed by me. I
>>>>>> have professional products retrotek powerjection 1 system. Older
>>> system
>>>
>>>>>> (2 years) but the techs at the company can not offer me any help. Can
>>>>>> not fix driveability issues (goes way lean under mild acceleration, so
>>>>>> accelerating from a stop light leads to severe bogging and just about
>>>>>> stalling in the middle of an intersection.) I have asked for a refund
>>>>>> or a free upgrade to their new system, powerjection 3, so that maybe
>>>>>> they can provide better tech support (which would be a downgrade since
>>>>>> new system is cheaper than old system), but they stopped returning my
>>>>>> calls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a 351 cleveland with CHI heads, roller cam, CHI intake.
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> 8-12 inches vacuum at idle, which makes it harder for fuel injection
>>>>>> system to work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I now am throwing away the entire system and starting over with a
>>>>>> carb.
>>>>>> Have to redo entire fuel system to non-EFI pump. close to $1000 to
>>>>>> spend on carb and fuel pump and plumbing now. Totally disgusted. I am
>>>>>> not made of money, and my hobby has become a source of endless stress.
>>>>>> The EFI was supposed to make cold starting easier, but never worked
>>>>>> properly. Was supposed to just start right up when you turn the key.
>>>>>> well, sometimes it does. cold idling was supposed to be better than an
>>>>>> electric choke. Doesn't do it, though. Was supposed to make driving
>>>>>> better, but just fouled multiple spark plugs and totally carbon fouled
>>>>>> the combustion chambers of my new heads and engine. Was supposed to be
>>>>>> easily tuneable by computer, but not so easy, even for a knowledgeable
>>>>>> person like me. If anyone has questions about these issues, feel free
>>>>>> to ask me, since I understand these issues well. It is just that this
>>>>>> system doesn't work as designed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know others have found some success with these systems, but I
>>>>>> strongly recommend staying away. Others have said I should just find a
>>>>>> tuner - but I don't know how much more time I can give this. I have a
>>>>>> job, and taking a day off from work to go to some tuner (flatbed the
>>>>>> car who knows where!) becomes an expensive option for a system that is
>>>>>> clearly advertised as just put it on and drive! And if the techs at
>>> the
>>>
>>>>>> company can't fix it, then why would anyone else be able to???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone want to buy a slightly used EFI system? for sale, cheap? NO
>>>>>> REFUNDS justin
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