[DeTomaso] EFI

Wed Oct 5 14:01:57 EDT 2011

Michael,

But I don't want a carburetor anymore! :-)

And thanks... You jogged what little memory I have left.
The carb I bought years ago that would barely allow my 377 stroker to run
was a Demon.
Wouldn't touch one of them unless someone gave me one and then I'd put it on
eBay.
:-)

And I _am_ enjoying my cars!

Back 9 years ago when everyone was whining at me for having a crappy old
fuel only Haltech F9a and that I should go with the latest and greatest do
everything EFI setup, my reply was....
See you at the track!

Now then... I know the rest of the SCPOCA guys are waiting on me to set up a
track event, so I better get going.

Later,
Kirby

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:54, michael at michaelshortt.com <
michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not to sound like a smarta#$, but why don't y'all just use a simple
> intake and carb temporarily so you can drive and enjoy your cars.
>
> I mean if the whole point is to make them more "road-friendly", seems
> to me like you have accomplished the polar opposite with these
> systems.
>
> I would truly love a set of eight funnels sticking up off the top of
> my engine, I could go with Webers ( talk about a sync and linkage
> headache)
>
> or I could go with an EFI system and get the same look with supposedly
> increased performance, but in either case I have to cut the decklid
>
> for clearance and I won't do that.
>
> Unless you are like Kirby or Mike Trusty and are a genius at this
> whole EFI thing, why reinvent the wheel?
>
> Is it the challenge of doing it, landing the prom queen for your prom date?
>
> Why not go with one of the proven cheerleaders, Holley, she can be a
> Demon I've also heard.
>
> Better to go with something that actually puts out than have the
> coolest looking one that just sits at home doing doing.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Jerry R Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
> wrote:
> > I have the usual Project From Hell.  I decided in my infinite wisdom to
> put
> > a 393 Windsor in my '95 mustang.  Cutting out large pieces of the
> > frustarting story, I jump to the laptop dyno tunning in Omaha at BJs.  We
> > thought something was wrong with the MAF since I was using an EEC tuner
> > board.  I had to adjust the flow numbers much differently than I had
> > previously calculate.  About the time we were making headway one of the
> > multidisc clutches burned up from the torque.  Later found it had been
> put
> > in backwards and had stripped the female splines out of half of it.  Took
> > the car back to Oklahoma and worked on the tuning for about 6 months,  In
> > that time I found the the EEC tuner that I had bough from the
> manufacturer
> > did not data log as it was supposed to so I bought an auxilary data
> logger.
> > Had extreme trouble getting the idle to work.  After about a year I took
> it
> > to OKC for another dyno tune.  At the tuners we found that the engine
> shop
> > in Omaha had iinstalled a set of 30 lb injectors instead of the 36lbers I
> > had taken.  Also that the EEC tuner working on a W4HO box that I bought
> at
> > the Omaha was for an auto and worked quite differently from the T4MO box
> > that I had had.  Later I found the addresses for both decoded boxes were
> > incorrect so a number of the changes that I had been working on wer not
> what
> > the boxes used for the combustion process.  There is much more to the
> stoy
> > but the car still sits in the back of the barn with the idea I will start
> > work on it again.
> >
> > On the other hand the box I modified with LSTuner runs like stink in my
> LS1
> > RX7.
> >
> > Go figure,
> > Sitting here with my sharp stick waiting to polk it in my eye,
> > jerry knotts
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> > To: "Mikael" <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> > Cc: <detomaso at realbig.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 9:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] EFI
> >
> >
> >> Good suggestions. Sometimes there are really strange things. I am trying
> >> to
> >> tune my Pantera and was having difficulties. Turns out my 13 year old
> MAP
> >> sensor is reading 45kpa when it should be saying 101. And it seems to be
> >> intermittent at that. Makes for difficult tuning.
> >>
> >> As a comment though... most systems I know about and have read about are
> >> only closed loop during cruise.
> >> I could be wrong, but they all switch off closed loop during full
> throttle
> >> and fall back to a map.
> >>
> >> These so called 'self learning' systems are all BS as far as I'm
> >> concerned.
> >> You have to get close manually before you can go closed loop. There's no
> >> way
> >> the system will compensate for something that's completely out in left
> >> field. No way. I don't care what you read in the marketing blah blah
> blah.
> >>
> >> This is the same as a carburetor. You have to pick the right type of
> carb,
> >> CFM and jetting to get close and then you start tuning for YOUR engine.
> I
> >> bought a carburetor once that was supposed to work as is. My car would
> >> hardly run.
> >>
> >> And remember... when a new EFI system is put on a production car, the
> car
> >> companies literally have a full team of engineers and technicians who
> run
> >> the engine on a dyno and then take the cars out to all parts of the
> >> country
> >> and run them through tests in all conditions. Altitude, cold, hot,
> humid,
> >> etc..
> >> Why? To set up the maps and feedback loops so the system works as you
> >> would
> >> expect it to when you buy it off the showroom floor.
> >>
> >> Ever seen the documentary on the development of the Ford GT? They
> couldn't
> >> even get the engine to START the first time around!
> >> The 'EFI expert' of Ford ended up using what I think I remember hearing
> as
> >> a
> >> program from a Crown Vic! Just to get it running! Then they started
> >> tuning.
> >>
> >> So even the experts have to work hard to get a EFI system set up the
> first
> >> time around.
> >>
> >> And we're talking about each an every one of us having a completely
> >> different engine. Different heads, cams, compression, bore, stroke,
> blah,
> >> blah, blah.... so each and every map and setup will be different.
> >>
> >> OK, I'm off my soapbox now... I like my EFI setups and will continue to
> >> use
> >> them.
> >>
> >> FWIW,
> >> Kirby
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 09:06, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Suggestions: I was sitting here thinking, can I suggest some remedy for
> >>> the
> >>> lean and severe bogging. Justin, I'm sure you've done all the sensible
> >>> things, so I'll give you a few totally weird suggestions, forgive me.
> >>> -Some EFI systems work strange if they don't get enough juice
> >>> (electricity).
> >>> Is your alternator fine? Grounding? Are there grounding wires from
> engine
> >>> and gearbox to chassis?
> >>> -I once had a car that did the same, but with a carb. It turned out to
> be
> >>> a
> >>> wire that was neither isolated nor fastened properly, so the g-force
> made
> >>> it
> >>> short against the engine
> >>> I know, weird suggestions.
> >>>
> >>> Some comments, from many angles, from a carb fan:
> >>> -Not many people can feel the difference between a properly tuned EFI
> and
> >>> a
> >>> properly tuned carb
> >>> -On non-fuel-economy cars, I'd never do EFI. Why add complexity? Why
> >>> spend
> >>> money?
> >>> -All carbs I've had have on an O2 meter shown a little lean when
> >>> accelerating, and still have excellent throttle response
> >>> -Buying things partly because the company claims to have experts
> sitting
> >>> waiting to take your call is very optimistic. These are slightly
> trained
> >>> call center employees, with targets on number of calls per day. My
> >>> experience is that you quite soon know more about their product than
> they
> >>> do
> >>>
> >>> Question: Are any of those EFIs closed loop? That's how OEM works, and
> if
> >>> it
> >>> is, then tuning should be unnecessary
> >>>
> >>> Mikael
> >>>
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> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
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