[DeTomaso] A/F Gauge- wide or narrow?

Wed Aug 3 11:57:33 EDT 2011

Dear Irrepressible Larry,

Wow. That is a most unusual analogy: stool analysis and A/F ratios! I must say that it would seem to have some pertinence to the topic. You are certainly thinking outside the box today!

Get started on your engine project! If you build the engine, then you'll want to drop it into your Pantera. That predicament will motivate you to finish the Pantera project! It could work.

Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

---- Larry - Ohio Time Corp <larry at ohiotimecorp.com> wrote:
> Hi Chuck,
>
> You need a simple mind to say it simply :)
>
> Think of it as if you are examining a stool to see what the person has
> eaten. A motor is eating air (ox,ni,cd,ect(should know the proper names))
> and fuel. To see how well the motor is "eating" this combination you check
> it's stool (exhaust).
>
> A good air to fuel ratio (free ox in the exhaust) is 14.7 to 1 (14.7:1)for
> clean emissions. A "narrow band" sensor only reads vary close to the 14.7:1
> range.
>
> For power you will be looking around 12.8:1 to 13.2:1 (13 air parts to 1 air
> part) my guess... This range is out side of the small narrow band sensor so
> you use a wide band sensor...simple :)
>
> So now you can see how something as simple as a dirty air filter can limit
> the air in, messing up the output and the motors power. The anal person I am
> I do all checks with everything installed as it would be driven! You do as
> much as you can to get as much air in as you can (blowers and turbos help :)
> then adjust the fuel to the proper ratio.
>
> Let keep this thinking going. Some cylinders are closer to the carb then
> others. Do they get a different mixture then the out side ones? Sure they
> do! What you are doing is averaging the motor out. The intake manifold does
> this for you.
>
> You know me well enough to know I can not sleep with that going on. I will
> have a bung on each exhaust tube in my 180's. I will also have Weber carbs
> on top. With this setup I will have 8 one cylinder motors. I can then adjust
> each of the 8 carbs to make each little motor just right.
>
> Now if I can only live to 200 to get it done!
>
> In conclusion you can see motors and people are not all that different. I
> ask people that are trying to lose weight if they enjoy filling up there
> fuel tank? All say no. So then stop enjoying filling up your bodies fuel
> tank!
>
> Larry Homolak
> Ohio Time Corporation
> 9401 Olde Eight Rd.
> Northfield, Ohio 44067
> Phone : 330-467-2430
> Fax: 330-467-9560
> Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> www.ohiotimecorp.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
> Behalf Of Charles Engles
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 11:16 PM
> To: 'Kirby Schrader'
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] A/F Gauge- wide or narrow?
>
> Dear Kirby,
>
>
> In addition to my previous dumb questions, I am still a bit
> confused about exactly what the thing is telling me: Measuring
> oxygen......hmmmm. ....OHH---KAY. As you said, it may a take while to
> completely grasp what the darn thing is doing. I will put it on my list of
> things to do to the Pantera.
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirby Schrader [mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:03 PM
> To: Charles Engles
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] A/F Gauge- wide or narrow?
>
>
> Oh, wow.... that's a loaded question.
>
> My answer.... yes, in as far as you can adjust a carburetor.
> :-)
>
> With a typical Holley, you have the size of the carburetor, the jets, the
> power valve and the accelerator pump available to adjust.
> What'd I forget?
>
> With EFI, you can adjust EVERYTHING!
>
> This can be good and this can be bad.... as Mike pointed out... you can
> adjust and tweak forever...
>
> Be forewarned though... it takes awhile to get your head around what the AFR
> is telling you.
> It is measuring oxygen or the lack thereof. Key point.
>
> It took me way too long to understand what AFR was telling me sometimes. But
> then.... I'm kinda' slow at times.
>
> Just remember, it is measuring oxygen, not fuel.
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 2, 2011, at 9:51 PM, Charles Engles wrote:
>
> > Dear Kirby,
> >
> >
> > Thanks. I very much appreciate learning from you experience.
> >
> > Next dumb question: IF you have your carb set up on a dyno, THEN
> > you do *benefit* from using a wide band A/F meter in real world in vivo
> > driving conditions to fine tune the carb???
> >
> >
> >
> > Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> >
> > PS: I have just started the head work on my next engine just in time to do
> > shade tree port work in 105 degree temps!!
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kirby Schrader [mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 9:45 PM
> > To: Charles Engles
> > Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] A/F Gauge- wide or narrow?
> >
> > Chuck,
> >
> > See my highly opinionated answers below.
> >
> > Kirby
> >
> >
> > On Aug 2, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Charles Engles wrote:
> >
> >> Dear A/F Gauge Forum Experts,
> >>
> >>
> >> PLEASE provide a dummy's guide to A/F Gauges. I gather that
> >> they are good things, but questions persist, if you would be so kind.
> >>
> >> 1) How much do these things cost?
> > How much do you want to spend? There are various brands and various
> quality
> > items. What's amazing to me is how much the widebands have decreased in
> > price since 2000. They are as much as 1/5th the price. Very affordable.
> > I'm partial to the Innovate Motorsports stuff. Good quality, not cheap,
> but
> > works well.
> > They also have packages to make the gauge look like what every you want.
> > Digital, analog... black, chrome, etc.
> > You can also output to any other AFR meter if you want. Standard 0-5VDC
> > stuff.
> > I have an LM-2 to do the odd tuning with cars that don't have a built in
> > sensor. A friend with a CTS has borrowed it for the time being.
> > I have an LC-1 and wideband mounted permanently on both the Pantera and
> the
> > GT40.
> > Depending on your ECU (if you have EFI), you can use the output of the
> > LC-1/LM-2 to do the feedback for auto adjustment of AFR under cruise.
> > Definitely not for full throttle though.
> > You gotta' be close in the first place with your tuning... it can't
> > compensate for everything.
> >
> >>
> >> 2) Do you have mount a bung or fitting on your exhaust to use one of
> these
> >> things?
> > Yep. With either the wideband or the narrow band, that is a requirement.
> >>
> >> 3) Are you mounting these in the dash or just temporary until all the
> carb
> >> tuning is done?
> > Yes! :-)
> > I have mine mounted on the dash in both cars. True, as someone said, once
> > you have it adjusted, you shouldn't have to worry about it.
> > But it's kinda' like oil temperature.... do you want to know or not?
> >
> >>
> >> 4) So...you have it installed and you drive around noting that it is too
> >> lean; in the sweet spot; or too rich and adjust the carb appropriately
> > until
> >> it *always* stays in the sweet green zone? Then, it isn't needed any
> > more
> >> or is it??
> > See above. But yeah... you can tell your ECU to log to a file while you go
> > to work and back.
> > Get home, sit quietly with a glass of wine and review whether you have any
> > 'holes' or not and fix them.
> > Like Gary said though... usually you know already that there is a problem
> at
> > a certain rpm. You just confirm it and fix it.
> >
> > Since I put the ancient Haltech on my Pantera in 2000 (which went up in
> > smoke, literally, a few days ago), I've learned a lot.
> > You _can_ adjust things yourself and I've done it, but it is much easier
> and
> > less time consuming doing it on a dyno.
> > Just depends... you can tweak either an EFI system or a carb for a long
> > time.... just depends on how keen you are.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I just figured out what the tach was used for, so help me with
> >> this.
> >>
> >>
> >> Mr. Dummy, Chuck Engles
> >>
>