[DeTomaso] supercharger questions

Sun Jan 3 20:26:47 EST 2010

I used to think about supercharging or turbocharging a Pantera, but then I figured, what's the use?  You can get 600HP fairly easily from a 351C/351W/stroker - without the hassles of forced induction - without the hassles of an ECU and without the hassles of a Ford to Chevy swap.

I can definitely see the appeal of doing a supercharger, turbocharger, or engine swap, but not for the HP.  For example, putting a Hemi in a Pantera is just plain cool, and so are twin turbos or a Whipple.

If you are thinking about doing a Whipple for high HP and reliability - without hassles - think again.  You're signing up for a lot of headaches with just the Ford to Chevy swap.  By the time you're through, you could have easily installed a crate engine and gotten all the HP you need.

By the way, my car is "on the mend" right now.  I split a cylinder and threw a rod.  I don't know how much HP I was making, but it would easily light up the tires.  It made way more HP than you can use on the street.  That's with a 377 stroker.  I'm not sure why it split the cylinder.  It may have thrown the rod first.  I expected the pull the engine this weekend, but I had some personal issues come up.  My point is you can make all the HP you can use with 351C technology - but not necessarily with a 30 year old block.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Jan 3, 2010 7:47 PM
>To: jderyke at aol.com, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
>
>Boyd,
> 
>    The ZF may be a bigger issue than the engine, and more expensive to replace.  It may be good to not go above 800 HP?
> 
>    I talked to Jim Bell (Kenne Belll Superchargers) a while back and he said they get an easy 800 HP in one of the current  Mustangs (I think the GT500???)  and it's a very reliable street engine.  He thought it would work well in a Pantera.  Jim seems to have some pretty cool technology in his twin screw superchargers and he seems to have a lot of real world experience.
> 
>   Chris Difani would have thoughts on this.
> 
>Ken
>
>--- On Sun, 1/3/10, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
>To: jderyke at aol.com
>Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
>Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 3:25 PM
>
>
>Thanks for your quick and informative reply. I should have mentioned I am
>not planning on supercharging my 37 year old Cleveland. I have been thinking
>about what I would  do ( or will do  when my Cleveland gives up the fight. I
>have no indication that this is an impending issue but one never knows. It's
>like a stroke or a Heart attack, if you knew it was coming you would
>probably have done something differently. I know supercharging my old
>Cleveland in any form would make the possibility of a major failure a
>certainty instead of a possibility. I know many will think it sacrilege but
>I have been researching  a supercharged LS3. Based on my calculations I can
>get an engine with much more horsepower and almost all the technological
>advantageous of the LS7 or LS9
>including the efi specifically designed for the application and the coil on
>cylinder ignition as well as the advantageous of the 6 bolt main , aluminum
>block and keep the price around that of the LS7 with 200 or more horsepower
>then the LS7  . According to the horsepower estimates the LS3  376/480 with
>6 psi would generate  675hp at the flywheel and 540 Hp at the rear wheels.
>With 8 psi you would be looking at  756 hp and 605 hp at the rear wheels.
>With a Whipple twin screw supercharger and 3 core intercooler you can obtain
>25 psi . If you are prepared to push the envelope and the idea of rebuilding
>your engine on a regular basis does not bother you 20 lbs psi would produce
>an estimated 1015 hp at the flywheel and 812HP at the rear wheels. You can
>buy an LS 376/480 for $6399 directly from a GM dealer (the retail price is
>$9138). The LS7 retails around $19,000 and you can buy one for around
>$13,000 and the LS9 which is already supercharged , comes with a dry sump
>and drive by wire controls will run you around $19,000. In all of these
>examples you still need to buy an ecu and harness and with the LS3 you would
>need to spend between $6000 and $7000 for a complete supercharger setup with
>intercooler. You would also need a new bell housing with any LS based engine
>and as you know and with any engine that provides a big increase in
>horsepower you  will need to regear your ZF if you wanted to convert all the
>extra horse power into a higher top speed and a quicker 0-60 ( like 0-60 in
>3 secs in first gear). I like to think about the various re powering
>possibilities during the winter months while I can't drive the Pantera. When
>the day comes that I have to take action I will be prepared to make a
>decision having already done the research. I have been spending my time and
>money upgrading my brakes and suspension. I want to make sure I can stop
>faster before I worry about  going faster!.
>Boyd
>
>On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, <jderyke at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 1/3/10 9:57:57 AM, boyd411 at gmail.com writes:
>>
>> Do you think a Whipple twin screw supercharger with an intercooler is a
>> better choice or a Centrifugal supercharger ( like a Paxton or a Vortech )
>>
>> Depends on the engine and what you plan to do with it. First, I would NOT
>> supercharge any 351-C that's been overbored unless you have a sonic-test in
>> hand that shows over 0.100" cylinder wall thickness everywhere AFTER such
>> boring. Thin walls flex with combustion pressures, blown engine combustion
>> pressures are significantly higher and cast iron doesn't flex very long. So
>> I'd suggest a different engine. Second, actually driving most blowers in a
>> Pantera is difficult due to not enough space for a proper width drive belt,
>> unless the engine is shifted backward. Shift the engine first before buying
>> any blower. Next, most blower kits are made for drag racing and don't work
>> well for long-haul use. Depends on your plans for the car. Budget about
>> $7000 for such a kit and have an extra block or two around; blower-savvy
>> engine bulders say your experience with superchargers is in direct
>> proportion to the number of ruined blocks out back...All it takes is one
>> (1.0) backfire to take out most systems so a really good ignition and fuel
>> system is much more important than higher boost. There's a reason most
>> factory systems only push about 5-8 psi. Finally, whipplechargers are well
>> known for pushing more air more efficiently than other designs, without the
>> lag built into centrifugal blowers. A well-designed intercooler (few really
>> are, by the way) is worth a few more psi in boost at the cost of extra wt,
>> complication in mounting in a Pantera and $$$, plus more damage if the
>> engine pops. You can't practically run an air-cooled intercooler with most
>> mid-engined configurations so a watercooled assembly makes more sense. Good
>> luck- J DeRyke (who owns two factory-blown vehicles- one intercooled. Fun
>> for mountain driving.)
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