[DeTomaso] Dear Boyd - was Rookie needs help

[mikeldrew at aol.com]

Boyd,

Apparently you still don't understand the things I've said.  Maybe I 
was typing too fast.  Allow me to slow down and try again.  You wrote:

If the components are "fine" then why did he have to
1. Replace his original fuse box with one from a later model?( He said 
the
wiring had been hacked into but that shouldn't have effected the fuse 
box.)

>>>That statement clearly shows how much you know about 
electricity--and this is coming from a guy who freely admits that he 
knows a bit, but not a lot.  I clearly stated that the previous owner 
had hacked my wiring to such a degree that it actually caused 
electrical fires, more than just one.  The result was (among other 
things) melted wires in the center of the harness, and a torched 
fusebox.  A fusebox that has melted and caught fire because of a 
previous owner's idiocy should be replaced--and I did, with a 
completely ordinary, used, stock fusebox and harness out of Charlie 
Puckett's 1974 Pantera (he gutted it to turn it into a race car).  His 
car had 20-30K miles on it or something, was completely stock, and both 
the harness and fusebox were absolutely perfect, with no signs of 
distress at all from their 20+ years of service up to that point.


>2. Modify the original circuitry and install the Mosely relay setup 
for the
fans?

>>>Because, as I clearly stated to you (repeatedly), the stock 
circuitry is adequate when stock components are used; when higher-power 
components are substituted, electrical upgrades are then necessary.  As 
it is, I initially had higher-power fans installed, with the stock 
fusebox, and although I saw no signs of distress, I later chose to 
upgrade the system and move the load for the fans off the stock fuses 
and onto an aux fusebox as a preventative measure.  The fans are the 
only components in my car that aren't powered by the stock fusebox.


>3. Add an auxiliary fuse box to supplement the stock components that 
are
"absolutely fine"?
Doesn't sound stock to me!

>>>Again, you're failing to understand.  The aux fuse box supports the 
aux high-power components *only* (just the fans and the headlights).  
The stock fusebox powers all the remaining systems in the car just fine.

If I had stock headlights, the stock wiring for that circuit might be 
okay.  But since I chose to add high-power halogen lights, it made 
sense to install relays to move the load from the switch, which isn't 
built to take that higher draw.  At the same time, the power that feeds 
the headlights through those relays comes from an aux fusebox, and the 
stock wires are used solely to control the relays.  The rest of the 
externl and internal lights are powered normally.

Those are the only two modifications in my car's electrical system (oh, 
and I've got an MSD ignition, if you want to count that).

If I had nothing but stock components in my car, the stock fusebox 
would be doing the job just fine, just as it is for so many others out 
there.  As it is, just two systems have had their power source changed.


>Explain to me how a heavily modified electrical system with the 
addition of
relays  and an additional fuse box  supports his intital claim that *the
stock fuse box is "Fine "

>>>If you don't understand by now, you never will....


>Here is another example of Mike 's confusing his opinion with a fact. 
He
said:
>>>"There are over a hundred Panteras in PCNC.  Only a handful are 
running
on anything other than the stock fusebox, and none of them have any 
systemic
electrical problems.  So your statement is patently false."

Where is the documentary evidence to support this statement. Did he 
survey
the owners?

>>>No.  Unlike some people, I don't just sit behind a computer and 
spout theories.  On a routine basis, I actually get out and TALK to 
people, spend time with them in person, drive their Panteras, and work 
on them.  For instance, I've driven seven, no, eight different Panteras 
this month alone.  You can learn an awful lot by actually being around 
other people and their cars, and talking with them, and most 
importantly, either working on them or at least being present when 
people who are more capable are working on them (which, when it comes 
to electricity, is my chosen practice).

>How many have altered their electrical system?

>>>Locally, perhaps half, maybe a few more.  Only a small handful have 
chosen to replace their fuseboxes however.  Due to his proximity and 
the excellence of his product, a few PCNC folks have chosen to install 
Rich Boschert's relay kit, which follows the Moseley kit architecture 
but adds a few additional circuits and relays; many others have the 
Moseley kit because it's been available much longer.

>How many are
having electrical problems?

>>>Off the top of my head, I can only think of one person in the local 
area who has any electrical issues at the moment (her windshield wiper 
system quit working all of a sudden).  Nobody has taken the time to 
investigate it yet because the weather is nice at the moment; it won't 
start raining until October.  Bill Taylor kindly built me a 
specialized, dedicated windshield wiper motor tester box; all I have to 
do is unplug the motor from the car's wiring harness, plug in the box, 
hook up the 12V and ground to power the box, and then I can test each 
position (high speed, low speed, return to park); if the motor passes 
the test, then the problem will lie upstream.  At that point, I will 
get out of the way and let the guys in the club with the pointy hats 
with moons and stars on them, go to work.

>How many use their cars and what is the average
use.

>>>By definition, anybody I talk about is somebody who uses his car, 
because those are the only cars (and more importantly, people)  I'm 
exposed to.  The nature of this usage varies.

>Anybody that has ever written a paper in the pursuit of a degree knows
that when you make a statement of fact , especially one that includes
statistical information you must include a bibliography showing the 
source
of the facts.

>>>Don't hold your breath waiting for me to do that for you.

>In a legal argument any statement of fact must be supported by
documentary evidence in the form of a bibliography. Where is the proof 
to
support these so called" facts"?

>>>It's at  your nearest Pantera gathering--convention, club meeting, 
tech session, party, or whatever.  You should try to get out and attend 
one sometime.

>This is what I have been saying from the
very beginning. Mike mixes facts with his opinions so often that he no
longer knows the difference. He pulled this "fact" out of thin air or 
some
place to rude to mention.

>>>I reported on personal experiences, mine and those of my friends and 
fellow club members, both locally and around the country, and the 
world.  You can choose to interpret that as 'fact' or 'opinion' as you 
like.

>I would also
like to ask how many Pantera owners have had recurring electrical 
problems.

>>>A more valid question would be, "How many owners have recurring 
electrical problems with systems that were not modified, or hacked in 
some way?"   Chances are, the number would be very small.  Those that 
do occur, often with the external lighting system, can usually be 
attributed to dirt/corrosion on the connectors, or at the grounds.  
Jack's advice to clean those thoroughly is spot-on.  That's a simple 
maintenance issue, appropriate for any 40-year-old car, and not 
something that could fairly be attributed to a direct fault with the 
Pantera's electrical setup.

When you introduce further datapoints, like, "How many people have had 
difficulties with their headlight circuits after they changed from the 
crappy sealed beam lights, to high-power halogen or other high-power 
lights without making the necessary modifications to support these 
components properly?", the incidence of problems or failure would 
probably go up dramatically.  But the explanation for the problems 
would also be fairly obvious, to anybody who chose to carefully analyze 
the situation.

>I am done discussing this. When it is no longer possible to separate 
the
facts from  fiction there is no point in continuing.

>>>I, and I'm sure everyone else, is especially glad to hear of this 
decision.

Mike