[DeTomaso] New Windsor vs All aluminum new 5.4 modular? - Life after 3 decades with a Cleveland

[Charles Engles]

Dear Dan,


              Well, that was a very enlightening posting, except for one
thing: "production Windsor blocks have walls that sonic test about the same
as Clevelands."      I am familiar with Cleveland sonic wall thicknesses,
but not Windsors.  Is it correct that the Windsors are a bit thicker than
Clevelands?   How much thicker would you say: a little; medium; or a lot
thicker? 

            Dumb question: do  you think the new 5.0 liter cammer engine
would fit in a Pantera without modifying the inner wheel housings as they
are for the current cammers?

             Dumber question: any early independent reports on the
Buttermore aluminum Cleveland block?


                  Curious,  Chuck Engles


-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:27 PM
To: detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Windsor vs All aluminum new 5.4 modular? - Life
after 3 decades with a Cleveland

> What is it besides the argument that these new Windsor engines are better
designed
> that make them really any better?.....

I think it's a case of race versions of Windsor blocks being compared
to OEM versions.
Production 351W blocks weigh have walls that sonic test about the same
as 351C's.
Race blocks get more iron (or aluminum) and can weigh around 200 lbs.

> I mean would not a better idea be the NEW 5.4 aluminum modular block that
makes an easy
> 550-600HP

Not many Ford 5.4L engines make an easy 550-600 HP without the aid of
forced induction.
Two weekends ago we went to a local chassis dyno.  A couple was there with a
supercharged 5.4L Shelby GT500.  It was purchased in October and, other than
a
cold air induction, was stock.  It put down 392 HP at the rear wheels.
 A friend's
393C street Pantera put down 411 RWHP.  After the first pull, the dyno
operator said
"Well, I didn't expect that."  I had my laptop with me running
Dynomation and showed
simulation that predicted 417 RWHP and I said "I did."   BTW, Mike's
engine was running
through a tiny 8" paper element air cleaner and restrictive mufflers.
A modified Roush
4.6L modular with aftermarket headers, intake, etc. only put down 300 RWHP.

The new aluminum normally aspirated 5.0L DOHC V8 in the 2011 Mustang
finally makes
good use of the DOHC hardware.  It's rated at 412 HP and early reports
are that it
makes 395 RWHP.  If so, that's better than that supercharged 5.4L did.
 It's still
constrained by the displacement limitations of the modular V8 family
but it's much,
much better than previous modulars.

> and more importantly is a 100+ pounds LIGHTER look one hellva lot better
in the back of
> a Pantera?!!!

There are aluminum Cleveland blocks now.  Tod Buttermore has machined
the first few
test articles.

> I regress.........

Your persistance is greatly depreciated.

> If the Windsor engines were so much better designed you wouldn't still see
Clevelands
> in demand.....then again I could be wrong...I was wrong once.

The primary reason Windsors are popular is because they were what was in
1980's
Mustangs and the aftermarket got behind them.  They have strong points
and weaknesses
just like Clevelands and any other engine.

> One of the engines noted in Circle Track was Ford's new Boss 351 block
with the N351 cast iron > heads...Circle Track article mentioned that
(in-their-words) in terms of power this new Windsor
> wasn't any better then the older Windsors. Dyno HP as measured on the
engine highlighted seemed
> pretty low (444HP at 6,500) for a circle track race car...no doubt great
power to weight ratio
> for a stock car but for you roundy round racers who follow circle track
racing what am I missing
> here?

The point of rules is class racing is usually to keep things competitive,
not
make the best power.  Those N351 heads flow around 230 CFM @ 0.6" lift,
better
than a stock E7 Ford 5.0L HO Wiondsor head that flow maybe 150 CFM at that
lift but still far short of your C302B heads (mine flow over 330 CFM at that
lift).

Dan Jones
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