[DeTomaso] Under car water pipes

Tue Jun 23 19:40:59 EDT 2009

There, I think that's what I needed, a simplified version of what the  
objective is.

Thank you Kirby.

Asa Jay

Quoting Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>:

>
> The hole in the frame isn't really necessary, in my opinion. I don't
> plan on implementing that part.
> I think John was trying to 'straighten out' the flow paths. I'll let
> him elaborate here on this point.
>
> What's really important is to get the filling point on the low
> pressure side. I would ALWAYS puke fluid after backing off from
> 7,000rpm even with a 24lb cap on my Pantera. It did it for years. All
> because the fill tank/whatever you want to call it today is on the
> high pressure side of the coolant system.
> That's one of the dumbest things about the Pantera cooling system.
>
> Look at any other modern car today.
>
> In addition, what I found on my GT40 was that I don't get the large
> movements in temperature. i.e., when traveling down the road, I would
> see the water temp drop as the thermostat opened. Then, as the engine
> would heat back up, the temperature would rise and the cycle would
> start over. Circulating through the tubes to the remote thermostat in
> the front reduces that to the point I can't see it anymore. Which
> means to me the system is damped better and more consistent.
>
> As for the parts required, I used a mid 90's Mustang remote thermostat
> housing. Wasn't hard to get at all. Ford had it in stock.
>
> And, if you just happen to have EFI, you can run the fans off of the
> block sensor as opposed to the radiator.
> That makes a difference as well since the fans turn on when the engine
> gets warm enough; not later. It's been in the high 90's here and I've
> not had a problem.
>
> Once again.... the most important part is getting the fill point on
> the low pressure side plus the remote thermostat.
>
> Engineer the crap out of how it is bad or not right or whatever. I can
> attest to the fact that it works.
> And, as I said, I'll modify the system the same way once I get my
> Pantera back. I told Quella I'd do that myself.
>
> It IS silver and black again! Woohoo!
>
> Later,
> Kirby
>
> On 23 Jun 2009, at 5:39 PM, asajay at asajay.com wrote:
>
>> I for one have read through John's article and though thorough, it's a
>> bit of work to implement.  There are quite a few other parts to
>> procure, pipes to modify, a hole in the frame that needs to be
>> created, etc.  There is way too much there for me to bite off in one
>> chuck.
>>
>> The comment that it is logical from an engineering point of view
>> interests me of course.  So my question is, what exactly about the
>> change contributes to the more effective cooling?
>>
>> Where can corners be cut to make improvements?
>> If I don't install an oil cooler that cuts down a little.
>> What about doing away with the heater altogether?  (not that I'm going
>> to do that).
>>
>> I'm just thinking what are the simple mods I can do to help improve
>> the situation.
>>
>> Asa Jay
>>
>> Quoting Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I've been intrigued by this thread. The subject of the Pantera
>>> cooling
>>> system comes up time and again and it's kind of like the old dead
>>> horse
>>> story...
>>> Why are more people not implementing the system John Taphorn used
>>> on his
>>> car? John was advised on how to do this by Mike Trusty (who has
>>> applied it
>>> on Panteras, Countachs, Renaults, etc.) and the modification/design
>>> works.
>>>
>>> Very successful, fairly easy to implement, no larger pipes
>>> required, etc.
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> I have done something very similar on my GT40 and it made a big
>>> difference.
>>> It's even logical and makes sense from an engineering point of
>>> view. It's
>>> the first thing I'm going to do to my Pantera when I get it back. I
>>> used a
>>> different thermostat housing, but the result was the same.
>>>
>>> The article John wrote can be found here.
>>>
>>> http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/technical.html
>>>
>>> Click on the 'new approach' link and the diagram to get all the
>>> info you
>>> need.
>>> The article was also published in one of the POCA magazines, but I
>>> forget
>>> which one...
>>>
>>> I hope this helps some.
>>>
>>> FWIW,
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:17 PM, <JDeRyke at aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> History lesson: back in April 1980, a few weeks before we
>>>> purchased our '72
>>>> L, Armand Gosselin of Orlando FL converted his '72 Pantera from
>>>> 1-3/8" OD
>>>> cooling tubes to 2". He did the ENTIRE system, not just the long
>>>> under-car
>>>> tubes! With the help of a local MIdas Muffler shop, Armand had
>>>> them bend
>>>> replicas of all the water tubes in the car, also changing the
>>>> radiator
>>>> inlet and
>>>> outlet spigots and the spigots on both water tanks to 2". He had
>>>> some
>>>> trouble opening up the underbody grommet holes and support block
>>>> for the
>>>> much
>>>> larger tubes- there's not much metal left when you do this! He
>>>> also had
>>>> trouble
>>>> getting the larger diameter 2" tube to wrap around the gearshift rod
>>>> without
>>>> rattling and rubbing. But he finally prevailed- see PI Tech Info
>>>> Group 27,
>>>> Article 10.
>>>>
>>>> The Pantera responded by running pretty much as it had before.
>>>> Some time
>>>> before the work was started, there was a long discussion as to the
>>>> possible
>>>> benefits, and one contributor said that it should make little
>>>> difference
>>>> because as the ID of the tubes increases, the speed of water flow
>>>> decreases
>>>> with
>>>> the same pump & pulley, thus maintaining about the same flow
>>>> volume. I
>>>> can't
>>>> find the discussion in P.I, but it turned out he was correct. And
>>>> besides
>>>> the water tubes, there are two other places in the cooling system
>>>> where
>>>> flow
>>>> is restricted: the stock radiator and the thermostat (possibly by
>>>> design).
>>>> If those are not enlarged, all you've done with bigger water pipes
>>>> is
>>>> slightly increase the cooling system volume.
>>>>
>>>> An aluminum radiator with its 3X larger internal water tubes DOES
>>>> increase
>>>> the flow rate of water thru it, but the thermostat then remains as
>>>> the
>>>> primary impediment to higher water flow through our cooling
>>>> systems. I'm
>>>> working
>>>> on that.... FWIW- J Deryke, defacto Historian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **************
>>>> Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the
>>>> grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004)
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