[DeTomaso] Pantera vs. Saturn drag race

Wed Jan 7 12:35:16 EST 2009

great museum, did you try to fly the Wright Flyer.....I crashed it several
times, but the walking in space was a breeze

Michael in Savannah

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 12:24 PM, John Maffeo <johnmaffeo1 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  I was at the museum of flight yesterday in Seattle......They are trying
> to buy one of the shuttles to add to their collection. They had a short
> film.......the shuttle uses 1,000 pounds of fuel per second!
>
> John
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> *To:* Thomas Tornblom <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se>
> *Cc:* "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>;
> detomaso at realbig.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:18:51 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera vs. Saturn drag race
>
> I was talking to an engineer who works with me here and he used to work for
> NASA on the shuttle project.
>
> His comment was that they throttle the main engines down on the shuttle
> during ascent to control overall vehicle stresses. The Roman candle
> boosters
> on the side obviously can't be throttled, so the main shuttle engines are
> used to control overall acceleration and velocity.
>
> Yes, mass drops (fuel being used), air friction drops due to density
> decreasing... but they are still focusing on controlling vehicle stresses.
>
> He said once they break the sound barrier (highest vehicle dynamic load),
> they drop the hammer and throttle up to max. If you listen to some of the
> Mission Control messages, you'll hear 'Throttle up to 104%' once they are
> through the maximum load period/sonic boom. Don't ask me how you can
> throttle up past 100%... WFO is WFO to me....
>
> I've always been fascinated by the specs on the shuttle... the fuel pump
> itself is a rocket engine that uses the fuel it is pumping! 17" flow
> lines... wow.... What is that.... AN280?
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Thomas Tornblom <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se
> >wrote:
>
> > I must say that watching a shuttle launch at night from Cocoa Beach is
> > damn impressive if you haven't seen an Apollo launch IRL :-)
> >
> > My wife said it was visible also from Ft Lauderdale.
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> > michael at michaelshortt.com skrev:
> > > I can't believe y'all started this thread on here knowing how many
> > engineer
> > > types populate the forum, good God, it's gonna rain geekdrops for days!
> > >
> > > But having said that...
> > >
> > > I was 9.5 years old when my Grandfather loaded us into the Dodge
> Explorer
> > > Motorhome in 1969 to go see Apollo 11 lift off, I have also seen two
> > > Shuttles lift off.
> > >
> > > A Saturn 5  Rocket being compared to a Shuttle is akin to comparing my
> > 500
> > > HP Pantera to a Tykes Plastic Peddle Car.
> > >
> > > I was 2 miles away, across a river, the ground shook, the water
> rippled,
> > the
> > > air rush wasn't imagined, it was by far the most awesome display of
> power
> > > that I have had the privilege to experience in my entire life.
> > >
> > >
> > > Aside from all these comparsions and since the brainy types will surely
> > > check this out, I do have a serious question with regard to the
> Shuttles
> > > that has bothered me since the last incident.
> > >
> > > As we all know the last fatal Shuttle crash happened ( as shared with
> us
> > > anyway ) as a result of a piece of ice or insulation falling off the
> > storage
> > > tank and striking the wing's leading edge, thus leaving a hole for
> > re-entry
> > > gases/heat to cause terminal damage, leading to the loss of control and
> > the
> > > eventual break up of the Shuttle.
> > >
> > > Then tests were conducted that showed ice being fired out of an air
> > cannon
> > > at a reproduction of the wing's leading edge, the exit speed of the ice
> > was
> > > reported to be greater than 500 mph.
> > >
> > > If the mass of the Shuttle, ( Orbiter, Tank and Solid Fuel Engines )
> was
> > > accelerating at up to
> > > 17,000 miles per hour ( as it reaches "space"), and accounting for all
> > parts
> > > to have equal forward momentum, would an errant piece of ice that
> > separated
> > > from the Tank really decelerate by 500 mph in the 20-30 feet between
> the
> > > ice's separation point and contact with the wing's leading edge?
> > >
> > > The variables that bother me are.....  If it happened early in the lift
> > off
> > > and it appeared to happen before clearing the tower or just thereafter,
> > then
> > > as stated in all these posts, the Shuttle wasn't going even close to
> > 17,000
> > > mph, it fact, it probably wasn't even supersonic yet, so how could
> there
> > be
> > > a 500 mph difference in speed between the ice and the wing's edge.
> > >
> > > Or if it happened at a higher attitude, the air would be much, much
> > thinner,
> > > thus less drag on the ice, thus retaining more forward speed - then why
> > > would the collision differential still be so great?
> > >
> > > Inquiring minds need an explanation.
> > >
> > > Soaking wet with geek drops in Savannah,
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Mark McWhinney <msm at portata.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> No need for physics or guessing.  Watch the launch of an Apollo
> mission
> > >> rocket on YouTube.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc1IKpWZpxc
> > >>
> > >> It takes around 10 seconds for the rocket to clear its own height (360
> > >> feet) and several more to reach a quarter mile (1,320 feet).  In that
> > >> time, a top fuel car has popped its chutes and is headed back to the
> > >> garage.
> > >>
> > >> The 180 foot tall Space Shuttle is a bit quicker but still no match
> for
> > >> a top fuel car.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FROxZ5i67k
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:
> detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> > ]
> > >> On Behalf Of adin at frontier.net
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:12 AM
> > >> To: Thomas Tornblom
> > >> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> > >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera vs. Saturn drag race
> > >>
> > >>  Thomas,
> > >> The information officer, as I remember, said the rate of acceleration
> > >> was constant.  This is a valid point, but the rate might be considered
> > >> "constant" for the case in point.
> > >>
> > >> Unfortunately, I've lost my license to post as a physicist and can
> only
> > >> guess!
> > >>
> > >> This all started w/ an online debate about which was quicker: top fuel
> > >> car or the shuttle.  I emailed a friend a NASA who found an email for
> > >> the PR information people.  They found someone w/ the data!
> > >>
> > >> This was some years ago . . . .
> > >>
> > >> David
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Quoting Thomas Tornblom <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se>:
> > >>
> > >>> adin at frontier.net skrev:
> > >>>> FWIW, a good top fuel car accelerates faster than the big missles
> > >>>> (data from NASA).  However, the rate of acceleration for these
> > >>>> rockets stays basically the same for a few miles (hundreds, or
> > >>>> until they stop  for a traffic light).
> > >>> I thought they accelerated harder as they burn off fuel and gets
> > >>> lighter, or do they throttle down to compensate?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thomas
> > >>
> > >>
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Real life:  Thomas Törnblom            Email:  Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
> > Snail mail:  Banvallsvägen 14            Phone:    +46 18 444 33 21
> >              S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden  Cellular: +46 70 261 1372
> >
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-- 

Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390

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