[DeTomaso] Pantera vs. Saturn drag race

John Maffeo johnmaffeo1 at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 7 12:43:51 EST 2009


One of my nieces was in town from Venezuela. I was on kid duty with my 4 year-old and her 2 year-old so her and her husband could enjoy the museum. I got to see a lot, but didn't get to play around much. However, the PB&J's at the cafe are great!

John




________________________________
From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>
To: John Maffeo <johnmaffeo1 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>; Thomas Tornblom <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se>; detomaso at realbig.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:35:16 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera vs. Saturn drag race


great museum, did you try to fly the Wright Flyer.....I crashed it several times, but the walking in space was a breeze

Michael in Savannah


On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 12:24 PM, John Maffeo <johnmaffeo1 at yahoo.com> wrote:

I was at the museum of flight yesterday in Seattle......They are trying to buy one of the shuttles to add to their collection. They had a short film.......the shuttle uses 1,000 pounds of fuel per second!

John




________________________________
From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
To: Thomas Tornblom <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se>
Cc: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>; detomaso at realbig.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:18:51 AM 

Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera vs. Saturn drag race


I was talking to an engineer who works with me here and he used to work for
NASA on the shuttle project.

His comment was that they throttle the main engines down on the shuttle
during ascent to control overall vehicle stresses. The Roman candle boosters
on the side obviously can't be throttled, so the main shuttle engines are
used to control overall acceleration and velocity.

Yes, mass drops (fuel being used), air friction drops due to density
decreasing... but they are still focusing on controlling vehicle stresses.

He said once they break the sound barrier (highest vehicle dynamic load),
they drop the hammer and throttle up to max. If you listen to some of the
Mission Control messages, you'll hear 'Throttle up to 104%' once they are
through the maximum load period/sonic boom. Don't ask me how you can
throttle up past 100%... WFO is WFO to me....

I've always been fascinated by the specs on the shuttle... the fuel pump
itself is a rocket engine that uses the fuel it is pumping! 17" flow
lines... wow.... What is that.... AN280?

FWIW,
Kirby


On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Thomas Tornblom <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se>wrote:

> I must say that watching a shuttle launch at night from Cocoa Beach is
> damn impressive if you haven't seen an Apollo launch IRL :-)
>
> My wife said it was visible also from Ft Lauderdale.
>
> Thomas
>
> michael at michaelshortt.com skrev:
> > I can't believe y'all started this thread on here knowing how many
> engineer
> > types populate the forum, good God, it's gonna rain geekdrops for days!
> >
> > But having said that...
> >
> > I was 9.5 years old when my Grandfather loaded us into the Dodge Explorer
> > Motorhome in 1969 to go see Apollo 11 lift off, I have also seen two
> > Shuttles lift off.
> >
> > A Saturn 5  Rocket being compared to a Shuttle is akin to comparing my
> 500
> > HP Pantera to a Tykes Plastic Peddle Car.
> >
> > I was 2 miles away, across a river, the ground shook, the water rippled,
> the
> > air rush wasn't imagined, it was by far the most awesome display of power
> > that I have had the privilege to experience in my entire life.
> >
> >
> > Aside from all these comparsions and since the brainy types will surely
> > check this out, I do have a serious question with regard to the Shuttles
> > that has bothered me since the last incident.
> >
> > As we all know the last fatal Shuttle crash happened ( as shared with us
> > anyway ) as a result of a piece of ice or insulation falling off the
> storage
> > tank and striking the wing's leading edge, thus leaving a hole for
> re-entry
> > gases/heat to cause terminal damage, leading to the loss of control and
> the
> > eventual break up of the Shuttle.
> >
> > Then tests were conducted that showed ice being fired out of an air
> cannon
> > at a reproduction of the wing's leading edge, the exit speed of the ice
> was
> > reported to be greater than 500 mph.
> >
> > If the mass of the Shuttle, ( Orbiter, Tank and Solid Fuel Engines ) was
> > accelerating at up to
> > 17,000 miles per hour ( as it reaches "space"), and accounting for all
> parts
> > to have equal forward momentum, would an errant piece of ice that
> separated
> > from the Tank really decelerate by 500 mph in the 20-30 feet between the
> > ice's separation point and contact with the wing's leading edge?
> >
> > The variables that bother me are.....  If it happened early in the lift
> off
> > and it appeared to happen before clearing the tower or just thereafter,
> then
> > as stated in all these posts, the Shuttle wasn't going even close to
> 17,000
> > mph, it fact, it probably wasn't even supersonic yet, so how could there
> be
> > a 500 mph difference in speed between the ice and the wing's edge.
> >
> > Or if it happened at a higher attitude, the air would be much, much
> thinner,
> > thus less drag on the ice, thus retaining more forward speed - then why
> > would the collision differential still be so great?
> >
> > Inquiring minds need an explanation.
> >
> > Soaking wet with geek drops in Savannah,
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Mark McWhinney <msm at portata.com> wrote:
> >
> >> No need for physics or guessing.  Watch the launch of an Apollo mission
> >> rocket on YouTube.
> >>
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc1IKpWZpxc
> >>
> >> It takes around 10 seconds for the rocket to clear its own height (360
> >> feet) and several more to reach a quarter mile (1,320 feet).  In that
> >> time, a top fuel car has popped its chutes and is headed back to the
> >> garage.
> >>
> >> The 180 foot tall Space Shuttle is a bit quicker but still no match for
> >> a top fuel car.
> >>
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FROxZ5i67k
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> ]
> >> On Behalf Of adin at frontier.net
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:12 AM
> >> To: Thomas Tornblom
> >> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera vs. Saturn drag race
> >>
> >>  Thomas,
> >> The information officer, as I remember, said the rate of acceleration
> >> was constant.  This is a valid point, but the rate might be considered
> >> "constant" for the case in point.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, I've lost my license to post as a physicist and can only
> >> guess!
> >>
> >> This all started w/ an online debate about which was quicker: top fuel
> >> car or the shuttle.  I emailed a friend a NASA who found an email for
> >> the PR information people.  They found someone w/ the data!
> >>
> >> This was some years ago . . . .
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Quoting Thomas Tornblom <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se>:
> >>
> >>> adin at frontier.net skrev:
> >>>> FWIW, a good top fuel car accelerates faster than the big missles
> >>>> (data from NASA).  However, the rate of acceleration for these
> >>>> rockets stays basically the same for a few miles (hundreds, or
> >>>> until they stop  for a traffic light).
> >>> I thought they accelerated harder as they burn off fuel and gets
> >>> lighter, or do they throttle down to compensate?
> >>>
> >>> Thomas
> >>
> >>
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>
>
> --
> Real life:  Thomas Törnblom            Email:  Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
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Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390


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