[DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Mon Aug 10 01:22:41 EDT 2009
http://web.mac.com/kirbyschrader
TWM throttle bodies on a GT40 MkII. See what you think.
I reckon Will is a little high with the 'down time'. I had the Pantera
on the road in less than a week, but it was the Pantera Performance
'kit' with a read to go harness. The GT40 took me the better part of a
month to get the system installed and it started first time. What took
so long was finding the bad harness... That took months to find and
was extremely frustrating.
On 9 Aug 2009, at 10:57 PM, Julian Kift wrote:
>
> Summit Racing in Sparks has had a 10% discount off everything the
> past week for Hot Augist Nights, so today I went in with a list for
> the EFI install on the GT40. I didn't go overboard, just run of the
> mill stuff, Summit's own brand on Aeroquip fittings and hose etc. I
> laid down $900 (after the discount) for the fittings, hoses, a
> Aeromotive fuel pump and regulator and I know there is still more to
> go.
>
>
>
> I could have had a set of Webers up and running a long time and a
> lot of dollars ago. Plus I'm still wondering whether the EFI won't
> look too modern on the '40.
>
>
>
> Julian
>
>> From: wkooiman at earthlink.net
>> To: detomaso at realbig.com
>> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 21:29:44 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>
>> I like to tease Kirby now and then, but to be honest, if I were
>> going EFI,
>> I'd go to him first - for advice on what to run, not to set it up
>> for me.
>> (besides, he lives 5 miles from me)
>>
>> There are others that know EFI too. I don't mean to imply that
>> Kirby is
>> "the" expert. I just want to stress that you should listen to what
>> he says
>> about EFI. He knows what he's talking about.
>>
>> One more thing: I think $5,000 is too low. I'm guessing you'll be
>> out at
>> least $8,000 before you have it running like you want. There are a
>> lot of
>> little things that add up - fuel pump, fuel lines, wiring, linkage,
>> air
>> filters, tuning, more wiring, replacing parts you don't like, more
>> wiring,
>> more tuning. Someone else that has done this can chime in on cost.
>> I'm
>> guessing higher because these things always cost more once you get
>> into
>> them.
>>
>> I'm also guessing 6 months to a year of downtime. If you buy a
>> setup from a
>> vendor, you'll probably get it on the road sooner, but it will cost
>> more.
>>
>> My car? I had Webers, but I switched back to a Holley 2 days ago. I
>> changed too many things with the last rebuild. I wanted to go back to
>> "simple" while I run down all the stupid little issues. I started
>> it today.
>> MAN! With a carburetor, it sounds nasty. It has 11:1 compression, a
>> CompCams 294S, 3" pipes, and Borla XR-1 mufflers. It was loud with
>> Webers,
>> but it had a smooth idle. With the carburetor, it sounds like it
>> wants to
>> eat something. (There's a Z06 next door)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: boyd casey [mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 3:46 PM
>> To: Göran Malmberg
>> Cc: Kirby Schrader; Ken Green; wkooiman at earthlink.net; De Tomaso List
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>
>> I wanted to clarify that the statements I made about the preference
>> for the fast system , the importance of a "fast processor" etc are
>> not
>> statements of fact, I don't claim to be an authority on the subject
>> by
>> any stretch of the imagination. I am only repeating what I have been
>> told by vendors or reading in articles on EFI systems. As far as the
>> ability to run 18 injectors I think the point the author was trying
>> to
>> make was that some of the less advanced ECU's didn't have the
>> capacity
>> to handle multiple injectors individually so you where prevented from
>> using sequential injection. The statement about the "inside fuel
>> rails" was referring the placement of the injectors specifically in
>> a weber style "stack " system. The authors opinion was that the
>> injectors should be placed on the inside with the injectors between
>> the stacks as opposed to being outside the stacks.
>> Again this is what I was told and it was in specific reference to a
>> 351 Cleveland. The reason I started this post was because the list of
>> things I don't know about EFI is allot longer then the list of things
>> I do know and before I drop $5000.+++ on an EFI setup I want to know
>> as much as I can. I have heard to many stories of people who spent a
>> small fortune on a EFI set up only to be very disappointed in the
>> results. When I receive information from a vendor it always favors
>> their system, (no surprise there!) so I am suspect and would like to
>> get first hand information from fellow Pantera owners before I pull
>> the trigger.
>> Boyd
>>
>>
>>
>> 2009/8/9 Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>:
>>> You mean to be perfectly "on line" without delay when programming?
>>> If so, it is the "Dos problem" which most ecu:s is working on.
>>> Windows makes for a delay which is very disturbing. However
>>> W95 is Ok at least with Haltech.
>>> Goran
>>>
>>>
>>> The guys that did it commented on the FAST system as being good
>>> from a
>>> software point of view.
>>> However, once I showed him the Electromotive software and where
>>> things
>>> were, he had no problem adjusting it.
>>>
>>> One thing that surprised me... I had 34 degrees max of ignition. We
>>> found it made more HP at 30 degrees.
>>>
>>> FWIW,
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>> On 9 Aug 2009, at 2:29 AM, Ken Green wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what the difference is between Bosch and Lucas, but if
>>>> you are going after high HP, I think you want low impedance (aka,
>>>> peak & hold) injectors. A lot of stock ECUs can't provide the
>>>> power
>>>> for low impedance injectors, but both the TEC-3 and FAST ECUs can.
>>>> The advantage is that a low impedance injector opens quicker, so if
>>>> you have a high flow rate injector, you can control it better at
>>>> low
>>>> fuel demand.
>>>>
>>>> I have been told that it is easier to tune the FAST ECU, but that
>>>> may depend on who does the tuning. I think you can actually spend
>>>> more on dyno tuning than what you pay for the ECU, so it's probably
>>>> best to get hooked up with an experienced local tuner and get the
>>>> ECU he likes to tune. It also may be important that the tuner has
>>>> done 8 stack systems, but I'm just speculating on that. Like
>>>> someone said, an EFI system is only as good as it's tuned.
>>>>
>>>> And, every expert you ask will give a different opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sat, 8/8/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>>> To: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:00 PM
>>>>
>>>> I have been speaking to Gary at twm induction and they actually
>>>> use a
>>>> weber intake manifold and machine it to adapt the injectors . He
>>>> said
>>>> that the FAST computer was the way togo now adays. The system Mad
>>>> dawg
>>>> has was he top of the line back when he got it but the new fast
>>>> system
>>>> is supposed to be supierior. The important factors are sequentail
>>>> injection vs batch injection, the speed of the system and how many
>>>> injectors it cam control. Also lots of the Weber style EFI have the
>>>> injectors and fuel rails on the out side and thats supposed to be
>>>> a no
>>>> no. Another big factor is the injectors. Gary told me the Bosch
>>>> were
>>>> far supierior. ( cost around $300 or $400 more then the lucas
>>>> injectors. Many of the systems are designed as EFI for dummies. No
>>>> fuel return, no computer pprogram adjustmment neccesary. It seems
>>>> to
>>>> me if your going to bite the bulet for $6500.00 + you may as well
>>>> do
>>>> it right or just go with a holley commander for around $2000.00.
>>>>
>>>> Boyd
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Kirby
>>> Schrader<kirby.schrader at gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, yes.... another person doing
>>>>> IR EFI on a GT40. Let us know how you get on!
>>>>> Jack Houpe, Mike Trusty and myself all have a TWM setup with a
>>>> TEC3r (Jack uses a TEC2)
>>>>> on our GT40's.
>>>>> Each one of us attacked the twin tank fuel feed setup differently.
>>>>> I need to re-plumb my fuel system. I have a 'better idea' than
>>>> what I am using now.
>>>>> On 8 Aug 2009, at 11:23 AM, Julian Kift wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am in the initial stages of an EFI retrofit on the GT40 with a
>>>> TWM IR
>>>>> system. Even after getting a good deal on the TWM throttle bodies
>>>> and the
>>>>> ECU it has cost far more than I care to tell in $$ and time (it's
>>>> all the
>>>>> little stuff, plus the complexity of twin tanks in that
>>>>> application
>>>>> requiring a swirl pot etc.). I constantly ask myself why I didn't
>>>> just buy a
>>>>> Weber 48IDF set up and may even still do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the Pantera I have a Kinsler mechanical unit that I will
>>>> convert to
>>>>> EFI and the ECU will be the DTAFAST (out of the UK), it is as
>>>> capable as a
>>>>> MOTEC at about half the cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dtafast.co.uk/
>>>>>
>>>>> Julian
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:54:49 -0400
>>>>>> From: boyd411 at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: wkooiman at earthlink.net
>>>>>> CC: kirby.schrader at gmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The EFI set up I am looking at and considering is basicaly the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> one Mad dawg has. It is a twm Induction stack (looks like webers)
>>>> The
>>>>>> ECU I am considering is the FAST ( I spoke to dawg and this is a
>>>> more
>>>>>> upto date ECU then he has) Another key component are the
>>>> injectors.The
>>>>>> two things I don't have are Mike Trusty and the CASH! I'm working
>>>> on
>>>>>> the cash but I don't know what to do about Mike.
>>>>>> Boyd
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Will
>>>> Kooiman<wkooiman at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> There's a very dramatic initial negative increase. In most
>>>> cases, the
>>>>>>> initial increase is the carbureted HP * -1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After a year or two of fiddling around, EFI catches up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you get smart and buy Mike Trusty a plane ticket. You
>>>> treat him
>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>> feed him, and brag about how your tires hook really well. Then
>>>> M.T.
>>>>>>> fiddles
>>>>>>> for 15 minutes, and finally EFI surpasses your carbureted HP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But then you need better tires.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
>>> [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
>>>> ]
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Charles Engles
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 8:46 AM
>>>>>>> To: boyd casey
>>>>>>> Cc: Kirby Schrader; detomaso at realbig.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Boyd,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps Kirby Schrader would comment on
>>>> this. He had
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of the Haltech EFI systems installed on his already healthy
>>>> engine back
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the mid nineties and he has first hand experience about the
>>>> before and
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> performance. He was very happy with the change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:50 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me what kind of horsepower increase one could
>>>> expect
>>>>>>>> from the addition of a quality professionally setup sequential
>>>> efi to
>>>>>>>> a Cleveland engine?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Boyd
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