[DeTomaso] efi horse power gain

Julian Kift julian_kift at hotmail.com
Sun Aug 9 23:57:18 EDT 2009


Summit Racing in Sparks has had a 10% discount off everything the past week for Hot Augist Nights, so today I went in with a list for the EFI install on the GT40. I didn't go overboard, just run of the mill stuff, Summit's own brand on Aeroquip fittings and hose etc. I laid down $900 (after the discount) for the fittings, hoses, a Aeromotive fuel pump and regulator and I know there is still more to go. 

 

I could have had a set of Webers up and running a long time and a lot of dollars ago. Plus I'm still wondering whether the EFI won't look too modern on the '40.

 

Julian
 
> From: wkooiman at earthlink.net
> To: detomaso at realbig.com
> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 21:29:44 -0500
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> 
> I like to tease Kirby now and then, but to be honest, if I were going EFI,
> I'd go to him first - for advice on what to run, not to set it up for me.
> (besides, he lives 5 miles from me)
> 
> There are others that know EFI too. I don't mean to imply that Kirby is
> "the" expert. I just want to stress that you should listen to what he says
> about EFI. He knows what he's talking about.
> 
> One more thing: I think $5,000 is too low. I'm guessing you'll be out at
> least $8,000 before you have it running like you want. There are a lot of
> little things that add up - fuel pump, fuel lines, wiring, linkage, air
> filters, tuning, more wiring, replacing parts you don't like, more wiring,
> more tuning. Someone else that has done this can chime in on cost. I'm
> guessing higher because these things always cost more once you get into
> them.
> 
> I'm also guessing 6 months to a year of downtime. If you buy a setup from a
> vendor, you'll probably get it on the road sooner, but it will cost more.
> 
> My car? I had Webers, but I switched back to a Holley 2 days ago. I
> changed too many things with the last rebuild. I wanted to go back to
> "simple" while I run down all the stupid little issues. I started it today.
> MAN! With a carburetor, it sounds nasty. It has 11:1 compression, a
> CompCams 294S, 3" pipes, and Borla XR-1 mufflers. It was loud with Webers,
> but it had a smooth idle. With the carburetor, it sounds like it wants to
> eat something. (There's a Z06 next door)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: boyd casey [mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 3:46 PM
> To: Göran Malmberg
> Cc: Kirby Schrader; Ken Green; wkooiman at earthlink.net; De Tomaso List
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> 
> I wanted to clarify that the statements I made about the preference
> for the fast system , the importance of a "fast processor" etc are not
> statements of fact, I don't claim to be an authority on the subject by
> any stretch of the imagination. I am only repeating what I have been
> told by vendors or reading in articles on EFI systems. As far as the
> ability to run 18 injectors I think the point the author was trying to
> make was that some of the less advanced ECU's didn't have the capacity
> to handle multiple injectors individually so you where prevented from
> using sequential injection. The statement about the "inside fuel
> rails" was referring the placement of the injectors specifically in
> a weber style "stack " system. The authors opinion was that the
> injectors should be placed on the inside with the injectors between
> the stacks as opposed to being outside the stacks.
> Again this is what I was told and it was in specific reference to a
> 351 Cleveland. The reason I started this post was because the list of
> things I don't know about EFI is allot longer then the list of things
> I do know and before I drop $5000.+++ on an EFI setup I want to know
> as much as I can. I have heard to many stories of people who spent a
> small fortune on a EFI set up only to be very disappointed in the
> results. When I receive information from a vendor it always favors
> their system, (no surprise there!) so I am suspect and would like to
> get first hand information from fellow Pantera owners before I pull
> the trigger.
> Boyd
> 
> 
> 
> 2009/8/9 Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>:
> > You mean to be perfectly "on line" without delay when programming?
> > If so, it is the "Dos problem" which most ecu:s is working on.
> > Windows makes for a delay which is very disturbing. However
> > W95 is Ok at least with Haltech.
> > Goran
> >
> >
> > The guys that did it commented on the FAST system as being good from a
> > software point of view.
> > However, once I showed him the Electromotive software and where things
> > were, he had no problem adjusting it.
> >
> > One thing that surprised me... I had 34 degrees max of ignition. We
> > found it made more HP at 30 degrees.
> >
> > FWIW,
> > Kirby
> >
> > On 9 Aug 2009, at 2:29 AM, Ken Green wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not sure what the difference is between Bosch and Lucas, but if
> >> you are going after high HP, I think you want low impedance (aka,
> >> peak & hold) injectors.  A lot of stock ECUs can't provide the power
> >> for low impedance injectors, but both the TEC-3 and FAST ECUs can.
> >> The advantage is that a low impedance injector opens quicker, so if
> >> you have a high flow rate injector, you can control it better at low
> >> fuel demand.
> >>
> >> I have been told that it is easier to tune the FAST ECU, but that
> >> may depend on who does the tuning.  I think you can actually spend
> >> more on dyno tuning than what you pay for the ECU, so it's probably
> >> best to get hooked up with an experienced local tuner and get the
> >> ECU he likes to tune.  It also may be important that the tuner has
> >> done 8 stack systems, but I'm just speculating on that.  Like
> >> someone said, an EFI system is only as good as it's tuned.
> >>
> >> And, every expert you ask will give a different opinion.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
> >> --- On Sat, 8/8/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> >> To: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> >> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:00 PM
> >>
> >> I have been speaking to Gary at twm induction and they actually use a
> >> weber intake manifold and machine it to adapt the injectors . He said
> >> that the FAST computer was the way togo now adays. The system Mad dawg
> >> has was he top of the line back when he got it but the new fast system
> >> is supposed to be supierior. The important factors are sequentail
> >> injection vs batch injection, the speed of the system and how many
> >> injectors it cam control. Also lots of the Weber style EFI have the
> >> injectors and fuel rails on the out side and thats supposed to be a no
> >> no. Another big factor is the injectors. Gary told me the Bosch were
> >> far supierior.  ( cost around $300 or $400 more then the lucas
> >> injectors. Many of the systems are designed as EFI for dummies. No
> >> fuel return, no computer pprogram adjustmment neccesary. It seems to
> >> me if your going to bite the bulet for $6500.00 + you may as well do
> >> it right or just  go with a holley commander for around $2000.00.
> >>
> >> Boyd
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Kirby
> > Schrader<kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Ah, yes.... another person doing
> >> > IR EFI on a GT40. Let us know how you get on!
> >> > Jack Houpe, Mike Trusty and myself all have a TWM setup with a
> >> TEC3r (Jack uses a TEC2)
> >> > on our GT40's.
> >> > Each one of us attacked the twin tank fuel feed setup differently.
> >> > I need to re-plumb my fuel system. I have a 'better idea' than
> >> what I am using now.
> >> > On 8 Aug 2009, at 11:23 AM, Julian Kift wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I am in the initial stages of an EFI retrofit on the GT40 with a
> >> TWM IR
> >> > system. Even after getting a good deal on the TWM throttle bodies
> >> and the
> >> > ECU it has cost far more than I care to tell in $$ and time (it's
> >> all the
> >> > little stuff, plus the complexity of twin tanks in that application
> >> > requiring a swirl pot etc.). I constantly ask myself why I didn't
> >> just buy a
> >> > Weber 48IDF set up and may even still do that.
> >> >
> >> > For the Pantera I have a Kinsler mechanical unit that I will
> >> convert to
> >> > EFI and the ECU will be the DTAFAST (out of the UK), it is as
> >> capable as a
> >> > MOTEC at about half the cost.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.dtafast.co.uk/
> >> >
> >> > Julian
> >> >> Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:54:49 -0400
> >> >> From: boyd411 at gmail.com
> >> >> To: wkooiman at earthlink.net
> >> >> CC: kirby.schrader at gmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com
> >> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> >> >>
> >> >> The EFI set up I am looking at and considering is basicaly the same
> >> >> one Mad dawg has. It is a twm Induction stack (looks like webers)
> >> The
> >> >> ECU I am considering is the FAST ( I spoke to dawg and this is a
> >> more
> >> >> upto date ECU then he has) Another key component are the
> >> injectors.The
> >> >> two things I don't have are Mike Trusty and the CASH! I'm working
> >> on
> >> >> the cash but I don't know what to do about Mike.
> >> >> Boyd
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Will
> >> Kooiman<wkooiman at earthlink.net>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > There's a very dramatic initial negative increase.  In most
> >> cases, the
> >> >> > initial increase is the carbureted HP * -1.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > After a year or two of fiddling around, EFI catches up.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then you get smart and buy Mike Trusty a plane ticket.  You
> >> treat him
> >> >> > right,
> >> >> > feed him, and brag about how your tires hook really well.  Then
> >> M.T.
> >> >> > fiddles
> >> >> > for 15 minutes, and finally EFI surpasses your carbureted HP.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > But then you need better tires.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> > [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> >> ]
> >> >> > On
> >> >> > Behalf Of Charles Engles
> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 8:46 AM
> >> >> > To: boyd casey
> >> >> > Cc: Kirby Schrader; detomaso at realbig.com
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Dear Boyd,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >                  Perhaps Kirby Schrader would comment on
> >> this.   He had
> >> >> > one
> >> >> >
> >> >> > of the Haltech EFI systems installed on his already healthy
> >> engine back
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > the mid nineties and he has first hand experience about the
> >> before and
> >> >> > after
> >> >> >
> >> >> > performance.  He was very happy with the change.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >                             Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> >> >> > To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> >> >> > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:50 PM
> >> >> > Subject: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Can anyone tell me what kind of horsepower increase one could
> >> expect
> >> >> >> from the addition of a quality professionally setup sequential
> >> efi to
> >> >> >> a Cleveland  engine?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Boyd
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
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