[DeTomaso] pictures

Fri Apr 3 18:01:12 EDT 2009

I don't think the rear wheel well is particularly high pressure. But then, what are you using for pressure reference?

Air flows pretty straight past the fender lip and should create a sucking out effect on the wheel well air but air is clearly not pouring out of the body.

http://www.detomaso.nu/bilder/tufttesting/127-2736_IMG.JPG
http://www.detomaso.nu/bilder/tufttesting/127-2733_IMG.JPG

Tomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: <michael at michaelshortt.com>; "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures

> Someone mentioned that the rear wheel wells are  a source for high pressure
> air. I had an idea to place a NACA duct in the wheel well my question is
> since the NACA duct is required to be aligned with the wide end facing the
> direction of the air flow If one assumes the air flow will be the same as
> the direction of wheel rotation ( is that a correct hypothesis?) should the
> NACA duct be in front of the wheel with the wide end facing up? or in back
> of the wheel with the wide end facing down (this is based on the idea of the
> duct being in the wheel well with the duct face and the tread face being
> opposite each other. The other possibility is at the top of the wheel well.
> I am assuming that the high pressure air is going to be flowing in the same
> direction as the tire rotation.  The rotation of the tire and wheel might
> act as an impeller of sorts to generate air pressure in addition to the air
> pressure generated by the forward motion of the car. theoretically wheels
> with slots might actually act like a turbine and move air either in toward
> the brakes or suck air out from behind the wheels. Does this make any sense
> to anybody or has the CIA slipped me some LSD.?Boyd
> 
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Grumble, OK let's get technical, the ideal gas law states:
>>
>> PV=NRT
>>
>> where P and T are absolute, and N is the amount (moles) of material (i.e.,
>> molecules of gas).
>>
>> so N = PV/RT
>>
>> so lower temperature is good, but higher pressure is also good.  Either
>> gets more molecules in a given volume.
>>
>> It may be easier to make air cold than to increase pressure, and detonation
>> is an issue with hot air, but theorectically, the energy you can get from
>> reacting a given number of molecules of air with gasoline is the same, so
>> doubling pressure creates the same energy density as reducing temp by half.
>>
>> If you have a really hot engine compartment (which Panteras may have) it's
>> probably good to find some cool air.  I guess a Pantera question is, if you
>> prevent hot air from under the car reaching the intake, do you benefit more
>> from the reduced temp, or lose power because the engine is starved for air?
>>
>> If you want cool, I guess you could prevent the air flow from around the
>> exhaust up to the intake too?  A horizontal wall even with the valve covers?
>>
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 4/3/09, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
>> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 1:12 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> Is that not related to "thinner air" because it contains less Oxygen to mix
>> with the gas?
>> Thus you need more of it (air) and have to tune accordingly for that use.
>> Turbos do the same thing for the same reason, cram more air because the air
>> is less dense.
>>
>> Take for example a Funny Car or Top Fuel car, Nitro fuel is nothing more
>> than liquid air, they only have a compression ratio of 3 or 4 to 1 because
>> all the air they need is pumped in as a liquid, the air intake on a AA/TF
>> car is limited to 63 square inches ( some use three holes, some use four
>> holes, but all of them equal 63 sq. inches of "intake area".
>>
>> An Airplane uses a turbo because it needs to cram as much air as it can
>> because it's thinner or dare I say, air of less quality.
>> Again to use Dick's car as an example, he has two Turbos and a massive two
>> tank NOS system, he's using two simple cone type filters.
>>
>> Look at NASCAR tracks, the best qualifying times are always in the spring
>> and late fall when the air is cool ( more dense ) and they can tune for it
>>
>> So, cooler air is best, as long as there are filters in place, the "force
>> fed effect" isn't going to be that important, it's like women I guess, the
>> cooler they look on the outside, might mean the hotter they are on the
>> inside. ( digging on the nerdy secretary look who wears her hair up until
>> she gets home ) .
>>
>> Michael in Savannah
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But to address your position, consider the HP loss at altitude.  Dennis
>> (MD) has mentioned several times how someone shows up at the Silver State
>> with a 200 MPH car, just to hit the reality of lower pressure at altitude,
>> and it is geneally cooler air at altitude.  Your only loosing a little over
>> 2 PSI, but it does appear to make a big difference.
>>
>> Aircraft need turbos for power at high alititude, regardless of how cold
>> the air is.
>>
>> I think we want cool air, but we need something to urge it into the engine
>> too.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 4/3/09, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
>> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:32 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Seriously folks, has anybody ever had ANY Pantera ever starve for air for
>> reasons other than a restrictive cleaner assembly or dirty air filter
>> material?
>>
>> We are talking about an Internal Combustion Engine, which is nothing more
>> than an air pump to begin with, I have no idea of the volume of air
>> required
>> to mix with a gallon of gas ( a simple google search would probably answer
>> that ) but I can assure you that if hooking it up to an A/C unit was
>> something that would have worked that Smokey Yunick would have done in 50
>> years ago.  The engine SUCKS all the air it wants, I see the main job as
>> being able to give it non turbulent, cooler (rather than hotter), clean
>> air from which to draw what it wants.  Unless you are tuned to take
>> advantage of forced air ( Blower, Supercharger, NOS ) I don't think that
>> any
>> form of forced feeding is going to make a great deal of difference.
>> Personally, I think all the scoops, RAM AIR gimmicks of the 60 and 70's was
>> more about looks because in every instance these lead to paper filters
>> which
>> restricted airflow to the limit of the filter material. PERIOD.  The
>> advantage was in the cooler temp of the air, not the force feeding, these
>> ain't french geese and we ain't making pate!  Stuffing it in won't make it
>> better unless you richen the mixture to the same formula, otherwise it
>> would
>> simply lean it out, thus back to the limit of what the engine wants and the
>> limit of the restrictive material of the filter elements and being tuned
>> for
>> that level of air induction.
>>
>>
>> OK, I'm ready, go ahead spank me and tell me how many ways I am wrong.
>>
>>
>> Speaking of which, I visited Atlanta last weekend and stopped by Dick
>> Koch's
>> house, if you want to see a photo of his bad ass Twin turbo NOS injected
>> engine, go to my website www.michaelspantera.com, select Photos, go down
>> to
>> Pantera Friends and then go to the bottom of the page.
>>
>> His air cleaners to feed that beast are basically two larger than average K
>> & N cone style filters near the rear windows ( which have been removed )
>> because it will suck all the air it wants - all by itself and I seriously
>> doubt that any other engine out there in Panteraland will requires more air
>> than this one.
>>
>>
>> Michael in Savannah
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > You still need either velocity or a pressure difference to get air to
>> move
>> > no matter what the temperature is.  I know the area above the flat
>> surface
>> > of the rear deck is low pressure, so air probably won't flow from there
>> to
>> > the engine, but I don't know if the area above the rear of the cabin
>> (where
>> > Goran's scoop is) is high or low.  If there is a stagnant boundry layer
>> > there at a higher pressure, then air will move and the scoop may not be
>> > needed.  I was hoping Goran was measuring some of that.
>> >
>> > We are suppose to get a lot of air moving from under the car and up
>> around
>> > the engine, so is the air under the car at high pressure, or is the area
>> > around the engine low pressure, or both?
>> >
>> > The rear wheel wells are also suppose to be high pressure, so air will
>> flow
>> > from the wheel well forward, but how much and at what speed?
>> >
>> > Ken
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
>> > To: "David Adin" <adin at frontier.net>, "pantera list" <
>> detomaso at realbig.com
>> > >
>> > Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:02 AM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I've been searching for this article for years...very concise & easy to
>> > understand test results.  In the real world, there
>> >
>> > are greater and easier gains to be had by lowering intake temps than
>> > raising pressures.  Real world! not counting superchargers
>> >
>> > and the like.  Just taking air from somewhere cooler than the normal
>> engine
>> > compartment air was better than ramming air into the engine.  You get the
>> > best of both from a scoop usually, but the benefit comes from the temp
>> drop.
>> > Reducing air pressure below atmospheric was not in the cards.  I guess
>> you
>> > could design/build a scoop bad enough to actually lower pressure around
>> the
>> > carb.  Whatever....what were we talking about?
>> >
>> > Michael
>> >
>> > Gruppo Rompiculi Corsa...BBORR...4 Panteras, 1 GT40
>> >
>> > > Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:21:22 -0600
>> > > From: adin at frontier.net
>> > > To: detomaso at realbig.com
>> > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
>> > >
>> > > I have to agree w/ Tomas, but ask myself these questions:
>> > >
>> > > If the scoop is not getting "ram air" but instead is getting "low
>> > > pressure" air, is this "low pressure" lower than ram air but higher
>> > > that atmospheric pressure? or is the "low pressure" actually lower
>> > > than atmospheric?
>> > >
>> > > Some kind of retard,
>> > >
>> > > David
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Quoting Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>:
>> > >
>> > > > I think it serves its purpose as long as the air is cool. The ram
>> > > > effect is probably less important than temp.
>> > > >
>> > > > Tomas
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>> > > > To: <DeTomaso at realbig.com>; "Göran Malmberg" <
>> hemipanter at hemipanter.se
>> > >
>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:00 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> Goran,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Have you evaluated the roof scoop at high speeds? I would not have
>> > > >> expected you to get much air in that location.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Ken
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>
>> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> From: Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>
>> > > >> Subject: [DeTomaso] pictures
>> > > >> To: DeTomaso at realbig.com
>> > > >> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 1:42 PM
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I got a few new images on this site. If you got nothing else to do,
>> > > >> why not take a look.
>> > > >> http://www.garaget.org/?car=40839
>> > > >> Goran
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
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>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael L. Shortt
>> Savannah, Georgia
>> www.michaelshortt.com
>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>> 912-232-9390
>>
>>
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>>
>> Michael L. Shortt
>> Savannah, Georgia
>> www.michaelshortt.com
>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>> 912-232-9390
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