[DeTomaso] pictures

michael frazier red3644 at hotmail.com
Fri Apr 3 19:03:55 EDT 2009 

There you go ruining a perfectly fine debate with facts and science.  

 

  I think doubling pressure would be harder than cutting air temp in half.  I was (when I had a carb engine) going to pick up air

from under the car much like the original system.  That should be much cooler than the air swirling around the engine block and headers and finally up top to the carb.  I have a Weber style EFI unit and have thought of just introducing air into the area

of the filters with ducting.  I would try a 4-6" flexible hose running down the firewall with the opening perpindicular to the pavement and a small flexible air dam behind it.  This is the sort of thing I don't think anyone would ever feel the benefits from, but I like to tinker.

  I don't think the wheel wells are a high pressure area so much as an area of high flow induced by tire rotation.  Oil coolers

don't seem to do much good here, but I haven't thought much about taking air from there...probably dirtier than I'd like it.

  BBORR is coming up.  If I'm not swamped I'll try to rig a couple of experiments up.  Maybe just clear tubing and water columns.

My head hurts now.

Michael
 
> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 13:39:08 -0700
> From: kenn_green at yahoo.com
> To: michael at michaelshortt.com
> CC: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> 
> Grumble, OK let's get technical, the ideal gas law states:
>  
> PV=NRT
>  
> where P and T are absolute, and N is the amount (moles) of material (i.e., molecules of gas).
>  
> so N = PV/RT
>  
> so lower temperature is good, but higher pressure is also good.  Either gets more molecules in a given volume.
>  
> It may be easier to make air cold than to increase pressure, and detonation is an issue with hot air, but theorectically, the energy you can get from reacting a given number of molecules of air with gasoline is the same, so doubling pressure creates the same energy density as reducing temp by half.
>  
> If you have a really hot engine compartment (which Panteras may have) it's probably good to find some cool air.  I guess a Pantera question is, if you prevent hot air from under the car reaching the intake, do you benefit more from the reduced temp, or lose power because the engine is starved for air?
>  
> If you want cool, I guess you could prevent the air flow from around the exhaust up to the intake too?  A horizontal wall even with the valve covers?
>  
>  
> Ken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 4/3/09, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 1:12 PM
> 
> 
> 
> Is that not related to "thinner air" because it contains less Oxygen to mix with the gas?
> Thus you need more of it (air) and have to tune accordingly for that use.
> Turbos do the same thing for the same reason, cram more air because the air is less dense.
>  
> Take for example a Funny Car or Top Fuel car, Nitro fuel is nothing more than liquid air, they only have a compression ratio of 3 or 4 to 1 because all the air they need is pumped in as a liquid, the air intake on a AA/TF car is limited to 63 square inches ( some use three holes, some use four holes, but all of them equal 63 sq. inches of "intake area".
>  
> An Airplane uses a turbo because it needs to cram as much air as it can because it's thinner or dare I say, air of less quality.
> Again to use Dick's car as an example, he has two Turbos and a massive two tank NOS system, he's using two simple cone type filters.
>  
> Look at NASCAR tracks, the best qualifying times are always in the spring and late fall when the air is cool ( more dense ) and they can tune for it
>  
> So, cooler air is best, as long as there are filters in place, the "force fed effect" isn't going to be that important, it's like women I guess, the cooler they look on the outside, might mean the hotter they are on the inside. ( digging on the nerdy secretary look who wears her hair up until she gets home ) .
>  
> Michael in Savannah 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
>  
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But to address your position, consider the HP loss at altitude.  Dennis (MD) has mentioned several times how someone shows up at the Silver State with a 200 MPH car, just to hit the reality of lower pressure at altitude, and it is geneally cooler air at altitude.  Your only loosing a little over 2 PSI, but it does appear to make a big difference.  
>  
> Aircraft need turbos for power at high alititude, regardless of how cold the air is.
>  
> I think we want cool air, but we need something to urge it into the engine too. 
>  
> Ken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 4/3/09, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:32 PM 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously folks, has anybody ever had ANY Pantera ever starve for air for
> reasons other than a restrictive cleaner assembly or dirty air filter
> material?
> 
> We are talking about an Internal Combustion Engine, which is nothing more
> than an air pump to begin with, I have no idea of the volume of air required
> to mix with a gallon of gas ( a simple google search would probably answer
> that ) but I can assure you that if hooking it up to an A/C unit was
> something that would have worked that Smokey Yunick would have done in 50
> years ago.  The engine SUCKS all the air it wants, I see the main job as
> being able to give it non turbulent, cooler (rather than hotter), clean
> air from which to draw what it wants.  Unless you are tuned to take
> advantage of forced air ( Blower, Supercharger, NOS ) I don't think that any
> form of forced feeding is going to make a great deal of difference.
> Personally, I think all the scoops, RAM AIR gimmicks of the 60 and 70's was
> more about looks because in every instance these lead to paper filters which
> restricted airflow to the limit of the filter material. PERIOD.  The
> advantage was in the cooler temp of the air, not the force feeding, these
> ain't french geese and we ain't making pate!  Stuffing it in won't make it
> better unless you richen the mixture to the same formula, otherwise it would
> simply lean it out, thus back to the limit of what the engine wants and the
> limit of the restrictive material of the filter elements and being tuned for
> that level of air induction.
> 
> 
> OK, I'm ready, go ahead spank me and tell me how many ways I am wrong.
> 
> 
> Speaking of which, I visited Atlanta last weekend and stopped by Dick Koch's
> house, if you want to see a photo of his bad ass Twin turbo NOS injected
> engine, go to my website www.michaelspantera.com, select Photos, go down to
> Pantera Friends and then go to the bottom of the page.
> 
> His air cleaners to feed that beast are basically two larger than average K
> & N cone style filters near the rear windows ( which have been removed )
> because it will suck all the air it wants - all by itself and I seriously
> doubt that any other engine out there in Panteraland will requires more air
> than this one.
> 
> 
> Michael in Savannah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > You still need either velocity or a pressure difference to get air to move
> > no matter what the temperature is.  I know the area above the flat surface
> > of the rear deck is low pressure, so air probably won't flow from there to
> > the engine, but I don't know if the area above the rear of the cabin (where
> > Goran's scoop is) is high or low.  If there is a stagnant boundry layer
> > there at a higher pressure, then air will move and the scoop may not be
> > needed.  I was hoping Goran was measuring some of that.
> >
> > We are suppose to get a lot of air moving from under the car and up around
> > the engine, so is the air under the car at high pressure, or is the area
> > around the engine low pressure, or both?
> >
> > The rear wheel wells are also suppose to be high pressure, so air will flow
> > from the wheel well forward, but how much and at what speed?
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> > To: "David Adin" <adin at frontier.net>, "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com
> > >
> > Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:02 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been searching for this article for years...very concise & easy to
> > understand test results.  In the real world, there
> >
> > are greater and easier gains to be had by lowering intake temps than
> > raising pressures.  Real world! not counting superchargers
> >
> > and the like.  Just taking air from somewhere cooler than the normal engine
> > compartment air was better than ramming air into the engine.  You get the
> > best of both from a scoop usually, but the benefit comes from the temp drop.
> > Reducing air pressure below atmospheric was not in the cards.  I guess you
> > could design/build a scoop bad enough to actually lower pressure around the
> > carb.  Whatever....what were we talking about?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > Gruppo Rompiculi Corsa...BBORR...4 Panteras, 1 GT40
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:21:22 -0600
> > > From: adin at frontier.net
> > > To: detomaso at realbig.com
> > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> > >
> > > I have to agree w/ Tomas, but ask myself these questions:
> > >
> > > If the scoop is not getting "ram air" but instead is getting "low
> > > pressure" air, is this "low pressure" lower than ram air but higher
> > > that atmospheric pressure? or is the "low pressure" actually lower
> > > than atmospheric?
> > >
> > > Some kind of retard,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>:
> > >
> > > > I think it serves its purpose as long as the air is cool. The ram
> > > > effect is probably less important than temp.
> > > >
> > > > Tomas
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> > > > To: <DeTomaso at realbig.com>; "Göran Malmberg" <hemipanter at hemipanter.se
> > >
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:00 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Goran,
> > > >>
> > > >> Have you evaluated the roof scoop at high speeds? I would not have
> > > >> expected you to get much air in that location.
> > > >>
> > > >> Ken
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> From: Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>
> > > >> Subject: [DeTomaso] pictures
> > > >> To: DeTomaso at realbig.com
> > > >> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 1:42 PM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I got a few new images on this site. If you got nothing else to do,
> > > >> why not take a look.
> > > >> http://www.garaget.org/?car=40839
> > > >> Goran
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
> 
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