[DeTomaso] pictures

Fri Apr 3 15:42:27 EDT 2009

Ok, you're spanked and wrong in many ways...but I agree with you completely.  

Michael

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:32:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
From: michaelsavga at gmail.com
To: kenn_green at yahoo.com
CC: adin at frontier.net; detomaso at realbig.com; red3644 at hotmail.com

Seriously folks, has anybody ever had ANY Pantera ever starve for air for reasons other than a restrictive cleaner assembly or dirty air filter material?

We are talking about an Internal Combustion Engine, which is nothing more than an air pump to begin with, I have no idea of the volume of air required to mix with a gallon of gas ( a simple google search would probably answer that ) but I can assure you that if hooking it up to an A/C unit was something that would have worked that Smokey Yunick would have done in 50 years ago.  The engine SUCKS all the air it wants, I see the main job as being able to give it non turbulent, cooler (rather than hotter), clean air from which to draw what it wants.  Unless you are tuned to take advantage of forced air ( Blower, Supercharger, NOS ) I don't think that any form of forced feeding is going to make a great deal of difference.  Personally, I think all the scoops, RAM AIR gimmicks of the 60 and 70's was more about looks because in every instance these lead to paper filters which restricted airflow to the limit of the filter material. PERIOD.  The advantage was in the cooler temp of the air, not the force feeding, these ain't french geese and we ain't making pate!  Stuffing it in won't make it better unless you richen the mixture to the same formula, otherwise it would simply lean it out, thus back to the limit of what the engine wants and the limit of the restrictive material of the filter elements and being tuned for that level of air induction.

OK, I'm ready, go ahead spank me and tell me how many ways I am wrong.

Speaking of which, I visited Atlanta last weekend and stopped by Dick Koch's house, if you want to see a photo of his bad ass Twin turbo NOS injected engine, go to my website www.michaelspantera.com, select Photos, go down to Pantera Friends and then go to the bottom of the page.

His air cleaners to feed that beast are basically two larger than average K & N cone style filters near the rear windows ( which have been removed )
because it will suck all the air it wants - all by itself and I seriously doubt that any other engine out there in Panteraland will requires more air than this one.

Michael in Savannah

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:

You still need either velocity or a pressure difference to get air to move no matter what the temperature is.  I know the area above the flat surface of the rear deck is low pressure, so air probably won't flow from there to the engine, but I don't know if the area above the rear of the cabin (where Goran's scoop is) is high or low.  If there is a stagnant boundry layer there at a higher pressure, then air will move and the scoop may not be needed.  I was hoping Goran was measuring some of that.

We are suppose to get a lot of air moving from under the car and up around the engine, so is the air under the car at high pressure, or is the area around the engine low pressure, or both?

The rear wheel wells are also suppose to be high pressure, so air will flow from the wheel well forward, but how much and at what speed?

Ken

--- On Fri, 4/3/09, michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
To: "David Adin" <adin at frontier.net>, "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:02 AM

I've been searching for this article for years...very concise & easy to understand test results.  In the real world, there

are greater and easier gains to be had by lowering intake temps than raising pressures.  Real world! not counting superchargers

and the like.  Just taking air from somewhere cooler than the normal engine compartment air was better than ramming air into the engine.  You get the best of both from a scoop usually, but the benefit comes from the temp drop. Reducing air pressure below atmospheric was not in the cards.  I guess you could design/build a scoop bad enough to actually lower pressure around the carb.  Whatever....what were we talking about?

Michael

Gruppo Rompiculi Corsa...BBORR...4 Panteras, 1 GT40

> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:21:22 -0600
> From: adin at frontier.net
> To: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
>
> I have to agree w/ Tomas, but ask myself these questions:
>
> If the scoop is not getting "ram air" but instead is getting "low
> pressure" air, is this "low pressure" lower than ram air but higher
> that atmospheric pressure? or is the "low pressure" actually lower
> than atmospheric?
>
> Some kind of retard,
>
> David
>
>
>
> Quoting Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>:
>
> > I think it serves its purpose as long as the air is cool. The ram
> > effect is probably less important than temp.
> >
> > Tomas
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> > To: <DeTomaso at realbig.com>; "Göran Malmberg" <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> >
> >
> >> Goran,
> >>
> >> Have you evaluated the roof scoop at high speeds? I would not have
> >> expected you to get much air in that location.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>
> >> Subject: [DeTomaso] pictures
> >> To: DeTomaso at realbig.com
> >> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 1:42 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> I got a few new images on this site. If you got nothing else to do,
> >> why not take a look.
> >> http://www.garaget.org/?car=40839
> >> Goran
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
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Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
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