[DeTomaso] EFI for 351 clevland

[Kirby Schrader]

With regard to the EFI drawbacks, I have the following comments in  
general about the IR EFI systems....

As a preface, I'll admit I'm biased. I put my first system on my  
Pantera back in 2000 and have helped people by email and phone since  
then with their systems.

I have a Haltech F9A fuel only IR system on my Pantera and an  
Electromotive TEC3r IR on my GT40.
I installed both myself; the latter with help from Mike Trusty, since  
I'd never messed with a system that had ignition control. Turns out,  
it's not that difficult.... Think of it as an electronic programmable  
distributor.... anyway....

The TEC3r controls ignition; the F9A does not. I have never had any  
problem with the F9A. Used to drive the car to work as an everyday  
driver for years. Beat it to death on the track, too. So whether an  
EFI system _should_ have ignition control to me is not an issue. I  
don't see that it is required. A Mallory or MSD distributor works fine  
to control the ignition. No different than a carb.

When I installed the PPC sourced system, I got better low end and  
midrange performance thanks to the individual runners.
The intake sound is very nice as well. And, of course, it looks cool,  
too!

As a side note, when I installed the F9A system many years ago, lots  
of people criticized what I had used. Hey, I got a good deal on it.
It was a well known system with many installations and experience  
available.

I like it, the engine runs better, it looks really cool, it starts  
instantly every day, no need for warm up, it runs better, better  
throttle response, etc. etc.  So honestly, I don't care if it is the  
latest and greatest... It works very well for me.
My old adage of 'see you on the track' still stands.

Electric fuel pumps that can deliver the necessary volume and pressure  
are readily available. After all, every Mustang on the planet these  
days seems to be tweaked with aftermarket stuff and they are almost  
all EFI if they are later year cars. The fuel pump I have on the  
Pantera and the GT40 is a Bosch that is typically used on modified  
Mustangs which need more fuel. Reasonably priced, reliable and readily  
available.

A return system for fuel is a an easy mod. In fact, I had a fuel  
return on my Pantera when I used a carburetor....
After all, it's a hose.... and a fitting.

Programming can be an issue. It took me awhile to get my head around  
what was needed and how it worked after messing with carburetors since  
my teens, but it just takes a little time and some thinking. After  
all, I helped Roger Sharp 'program' his Haltech over the phone. He  
told me at Las Vegas last summer he hasn't touched the settings since  
then. Man, that was back in 2000? I don't see the need to tweak  
anything unless, as you say, you change something dramatic on the  
engine.
Camshaft, headers.... that kind of thing would make a difference, but  
it wouldn't take much to compensate for them, either.

Both the F9A and the TEC3r compensate for engine coolant temperature,  
intake air temperature, barometric pressure (depending on how you hook  
up the F9A), manifold pressure, etc. etc. and don't require any  
adjustment for temperature or elevation. They automatically compensate.

Yes, there are more sensors and wiring. Every car these days has tons  
of sensors!

Both systems allow for tuning in real time. Hell, I 'tuned' my Pantera  
driving to work and back with a laptop on the passenger seat.
I kept getting nagged about how I should take it to a dyno and REALLY  
tune it.... so eventually, I did.
We couldn't find anymore horsepower or torque once I was on the dyno.  
Seat of the pants works fine for me!
But I agree that it's faster and easier on the dyno.

Yes, the IR systems are more costly. There are certainly other  
options, but I have no experience with them.

I'm no expert, but based on my experience with the two systems I have,  
I can't see that they are that difficult to install or tune.
Installing the TEC3r on my GT40 was quite a challenge, because there's  
just not enough room to put 'extra' things on that car.

We're almost finished installing an equivalent TEC3r system on Don  
Franck's Pantera. The Pantera, in general, has MUCH more room to work  
and has more places to install various components than the smaller  
car... Definitely an easier task.

In fact, we were about ready to start Don's car yesterday, but we had  
a 'gotchca' with the ECU. It seems to be faulty and is going back to  
Electromotive. -60C air temp, 70C coolant temp with a cold engine and  
a throttle position that would not change didn't help much.
When we took my GT40 ECU out and put it in Don's car, everything  
worked correctly.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject. I will admit that the GT40  
EFI had me puzzled for months when I couldn't get it to work quite  
right. Turned out to be a bad wiring harness, but THAT is an extremely  
rare occurrence. It's working fine now after I re-wired a new harness  
(that Electromotive supplied free of charge) into the car.

Oh, both the Pantera and the GT40 use TWM throttle bodies. The Pantera  
uses a Weber style intake; the GT40 uses a custom IR intake made by  
Kelly Coffield. Same one as the Dawg is running on his Pantera. MD has  
serial #1, I have serial #2.
My engine is a 9.5" block and I couldn't find a manifold to fit until  
I was put in touch with Kelly.

The GT40 has a really nice center pull linkage system with a  
progressive pull pulley, the Pantera has a side pull mechanism. Both  
work fine, but the latest on the GT40 is much easier to adjust and has  
a more progressive response.

I'll be glad to try and answer any other questions. If I can't, Mike  
Trusty can. (sorry, Mike... I volunteered your services....)

I know nothing about Webers. However, I talked to William King years  
ago after he put Webers on his car.
He claimed that all he did was buy the system, sit down, read about  
Webers, how they worked and how to tune and then he started tuning. No  
drama. His car ran great. As they say, your mileage may vary....  
literally.

Summary: I'd recommend EFI over the Webers. But once again, I'm  
biased....

Oh... and finding a good air filter system for either system that you  
like and is reasonably priced can be a challenge....
However, Mike's friend Jack makes a VERY reasonably priced setup, if  
you're interested. Don is putting it on his Pantera.

FWIW,
Kirby



On 28 Sep 2008, at 4:30 PM, <rimov at charter.net> <rimov at charter.net>  
wrote:

> If you are looking for better drivality, quicker throttle responce,  
> great start up and the ability to drive away with out having to wait  
> till the engine is warmed up and untmost engine control  then EFI is  
> great. However if you are looking for, well, for stunning wicked  
> looks nothing looks better than set of webbers pearched on top of an  
> engine. An IR EFI are very nice looking as well but are much more  
> involved and costly.
>
>
> EFI is not with out its drawbacks. For total engine management the  
> system should have the capability to control spark as well as fuel  
> management There are significantly more sensors, actuators and  
> wiring involved as well as having to run an electric fuel pump  
> capable of delivering  no less than 255 plus litres of fuel an hour  
> at 40 to 45 pounds of pressure with a return system for excess fuel.  
> Also programing is tedius and can be very frustraiting. Most  
> aftermarket systems use speed density that require tuning from time  
> to time especially when any changes are made to the engine, when  
> tempatures change or when you go somewhere at different elevations.  
> Understanding map stategies can be somewhat overwhelming for some  
> and readily understood by others. I have never tuned or worked on a  
> car with Webbers but I have read many of discussions on the  
> difficulty and drivablitiy challenges associated with Webbers
>
> As an aside Holley has a TBI set up that runs around $1700 that  
> looks like a chinc to install on a Cleveland. I have read through  
> the installation guides and programing guides and although it may  
> not offer the looks and the performace of a multiport or IR Webber  
> based EFI it offers a lot of bang for the buck and will work with  
> just about any single plain manifold and TFI from a Ford 460 and  
> allows the user to program the ECU from a lap top in real time. Also  
> F.A.S.T has an EFI that would be easy enough to adapt to a Cleveland  
> but would require some work adapting a suitble intake manifold to  
> work with the multiport set up.
>
> Trying to dodge the $6-7K for an EFI set up I have been playing with  
> a Ford  5.0 with EFI/Mass  in my Car for the past year.  
> Unfortunately, I didn't dodge the cost by much and although I have  
> it dialed in pretty good it is not the Cleveland.
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul
>
>
> ---- {0} wrote:
>> I have a 1973 Pantera Land I am considering installing either 4  
>> Weber IDA's
>> or a "weber style " throttle body EFI set up. I am looking for feed  
>> back on
>> performance differences between the actual webers vs the "weber  
>> Look" EFI.
>> If anybody has dyno comparisons or real life experience I would  
>> love to hear
>> about it . Also anyone with experience or knowledge concerning   
>> using the
>> different   throttle body "weber style" EFI systems. I know  there  
>> are
>> several different makes available( redline, Imagine injection, TWM)  
>> to name
>> a few. Any body willing to share their expierience or opinion would  
>> be
>> welcome. I really like the "weber Look" I can install weber carbs  
>> for around
>> half the price of EFI ( as far as I can tell) I can do the webers  
>> including
>> the carbs , manifold, linkage for around $3000. The EFI including  
>> everything
>> including computer and software looks like it will run between  
>> $5000 and
>> $6900. I am intersted in knowing if the efi is worth the extra  
>> expense.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Hugh
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