[DeTomaso] Cobra Kit Recommendation and Mustang for Sale

[MikeLDrew at aol.com]

In a message dated 9/25/08 14 59 35, garth_rodericks at yahoo.com writes:
> 
> ++++ What's not true? That Superformance has a better engineered chassis? 
> That ERA and Contemporary are two of the most accurate fiberglass kits on
> the market, save for perhaps the "Shelby" kit?  Or my statement about
> engineering/design flaws?  
> 
>>>Your statement "The ERA and Contemporary are both high quality kits, and 
arguably the most accurate replicas available, but they also faithfully 
reproduce the same engineering/design flaws of the original - not that any of that 
can't be worked out."

The ERA and Contemporary are nice-looking, but are nowhere near the most 
accurate replicas available, other than visually.   Under the skin they are 
radically different from the originals, and have completely different 
engineering/design flaws, which arguably are much greater flaws than the originals came 
with.

> Yeah, the 427 Cobra was considered to have
> a "modern" computer designed chassis layout, but the car was still well
> known for it's twitchy handling and spin-on-a-dime tendancy. 
> 
>>>Lots of people perpetuate the myth that the 289 Cobra handles better than 
a 427.   When pressed, you'll find that roughly 100% of the people who spread 
that story have never driven either one!   In other words, they don't know 
squat!

Cobras (when new) were limited by tire design.   1960s tires weren't nearly 
capable of handling the forces being transmitted by the powertrain, except for 
racing tires, and 427s transmit even more of those forces.   Even today, most 
15-inch street tires (including mine) are woefully inadequate for the task at 
hand.

On the other hand, when equipped with seriously sticky tires, the 427s really 
are a force to be reckoned with.   I knew a few people (including the late 
Dick Smith) who vintage raced genuine 427 cars, and other than encountering 
brake problems because they were so much faster than the 289s that had the same 
brakes, they had no other issues; in fact they reported that the handling was a 
bit more predictable.

> >And it's
> nothing that modern tires, bars, bushings, springs and shocks can't
> improve. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have either an original or any of
> these kits. But the Superformance is still the better driving car!
> 
>>>I have a feeling you are right about that.   The Superformance benefits 
from modern chassis development, unlike the others.   But the original 427 still 
had an excellent chassis; the Contemporary and ERA are only 'pretty good' 
(with the ERA arguably being better; I had to modify my Contemporary to bring it 
up to ERA standards).

> 
> ++++FWIW, Contemporary also took liberties with the body by modifying the
> wheel openings a bit to close the gap between the tire and body - makes
> for a cleaner appearance.
> 
>>>Not exactly true either.   The owners of Contemporary owned an original 
427 Cobra, and splashed the body mold directly from their car.   It has all the 
irregularities and flaws of that car, including the fact that one headlight is 
slightly higher than the other! 

When you look at a LOT of genuine Cobras, you'll see subtle and not-so-subtle 
variations in their body design.   Due to their hand-built nature, there was 
extensive car-to-car variation.   There were also unadvertised changes to the 
body shape during production.   

Early in the production run, Shelby was unhappy with the appearance of the 
wide-hip competition body when fitted with the street 7.5” "Sunburst" rear 
wheels in place of the competition versions 9.5” Halibrand wheels.   The solution?  
 After the 25th car was produced a modified rear fender configuration was 
introduced. These cars are known as “narrow hip” cars. Shelby later deemed it 
was not worth the added expense to make two 427 Cobra body configurations, and 
only 32 narrow hip cars were built. This makes narrow hip cars not only the 
rarest of 427 Cobras but also the most aesthetically pleasing to some people. 
With their far more fit proportions they look like a proper sports car, along the 
lines of the original 289 Cobras.

Of course, many/most owners of original wide-fendered 427 Cobras retrofitted 
9.5 inch Halibrands to the rear, fixing the aesthetic problem.   And the last 
wide-hipped Cobras have subtle differences from the first ones as well.

> 
> ++++Again, not sure what's not true.  So, some of the cars are built in 
> Vegas; some or bits are built in South Africa. Who cares? It's just another 
> replica manufacturer who has use of the Shelby name. 
> 
>>>Nope, not true.   These aren't being built and sold by somebody else under 
a licensing arrangement (not that Shelby is shy about that sort of thing; 
he's lent his name to some Superformance GT40s now, which is rather confusing).   
Instead, these Shelby cars are being built exclusively for Shelby by an 
outfit in South Africa, and sold exclusively by Shelby.   This is basically the 
same arrangement Shelby had with AC Cars who built the original Cobra 
chassis/body and then shipped them to California for completion.   It's not some other 
manufacturer building the cars and selling them with the Shelby name.

> >Carrol Shelby has no part of the manufacture of those replicas or the 
> management of the business. It's just his name, but hey, they are fetching big 
> dollar$ at Barrett-Jackson.
> 
>>>I have no idea where you've been so deeply misinformed about that.   The 
entire project has been run, start to finish, by Shelby.   For awhile 
manufacture was taking place 100% in the USA; then for awhile part of it was exported 
to Mexico, and then Malta (!?), and now finally for the past few years, it's 
being done in South Africa.   I must confess I don't know WHO exactly in South 
Africa is building them, although I suspect it's Hi-Tech auto (who also make 
all the Superformance cars, and the Noble).
> 
> ++++ Perhaps things have changed.  When I priced the two vehicles a few
> years ago - Superformance and Shelby - a comparably equipped Shelby
> carried a 40% premium (or more) over the cost of the Superformance. That's
> the way it was. Glad to hear their priced closer now. 
> 
>>>Yeah, when production moved to South Africa the price plummeted.   For 
awhile you could get a painted Shelby roller for $39,995; several friends who 
went for that deal found out the hard way that Shelby's definition of 'roller' is 
rather different from everybody else's though, and they required 
substantially more work to get them on the road than a Superformance would.


> And, it doesn't
> suprise me that Lance Stander is also a Shelby dealer, after all
> Superformance now provides Shelby with their "Shelby" Daytona Coupe.
> 
>>>Yeah, there's that weird licencing thing again.
> 
> 
> ++++Uh, yes it is true. Although I may have gone too far to say the
> Superformace would be a better quality car than the Shelby. Both built in
> South Africa (some coming from the same manufacturing facility) so fit and
> finish should be the same. So I agree that the build quality of a
> Superformance will be comparable to a "Shelby."  And the build quality of
> a Kirkham will depend on the owner, unless the deluxe roller is ordered.
> So the key difference is that the "Shelby" replica will look more
> authentic perhaps to someone who knows enough about these cars to
> distinguish, but not "better."
> 
> >>>Yes, agreed.
> 
> ++++Not true. The suspensions between the Contemporary 427 and the Unique
> 289 FIA are nearly identical - adjustable coil overs up front, rack and
> pinion steering, Jaguar salisbury rear end, etc. 
> 
>>>Most Contemporary cars use torsion bars in the front instead of 
coil-overs, but that probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

> And the weight difference
> between the 302 and 427 is nearly 200 pounds, which when placed on the
> nose of a car with a 90" wheelbase can have a significant impact on
> handling. 
> 
>>>There's another myth/misnomer.   People who have never driven Cobras will 
tell you all day long that the 427 didn't handle as well because it had so 
much more weight on the nose.   Well, guess what?  The Cobra is a mid-engined car 
with the engine in front of the driver.   Mine had a genuine Cobra 427 with 
cast-iron heads, and had 47/53 front/rear weight distribution!   There's no 
arguing the fact that reducing the weight by installing a small block can have 
benefits, but you won't be removing all that weight solely from the front axle 
line.   I would guess (and this is a guess) that replacing my 427 with a 289 
would then cause my car to have something more like 45/55 weight 
distribution--not a major difference.


> >So, driver abilities aside, two Cobra replicas with 90-inch
> wheelbases and identical suspensions, the car that is lighter in the nose
> by almost 200 pounds will be a better balanced and better handling car
> (all other things being equal).
> 
>>>Again, you're perpetuation a logical fallacy.   Removing 200 pounds from 
the engine does NOT remove 200 pounds from the nose--not even close.
> 
> ++++The 427 would be faster perhaps, but not easier to drive. But any car
> with lots of torque and a 90 inch wheelbase would provide lots of
> excitement. Anyway, just sharing one man's driving impressions 
> 
>>>Whose?   Have you ever actually driven one?   I thought you said you just 
got rides in other people's cars?

> and
> encouraging the prospective buyer to look at and drive as many different
> cars as he can (just like buying a Pantera) - it's the only way he'll know
> what he wants.
> 
> >>>Yes, there's a lot of truth in that.   I did my homework before I bought 
my Contemporary back in 1996, and ruled out virtually every other option then 
available on the marketplace.   But if I were to do it all over again today, I 
would only consider Superformance and Shelby (because I wouldn't see the 
benefit of spending twice as much for a Kirkham).   

If I wanted a simple solution, with relatively little muss and fuss to get on 
the road, then Superformance (particularly a used, running car) is for sure 
the only way to go.   If I was willing to sacrifice a few (or few hundred!) 
hours of my time in the pursuit of authenticity, then I'd go the Shelby route.

Mike




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