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<div>I do that was well. Also, I have to shift into 2nd before shifting to 1st if I sit at a traffic light too long in neutral.</div>
<div>The weirdest thing that 1st gear would run up. But I have accepted as part of driving my P.</div>
<div>And I have a new master, a new clutch and my ZF was rebuilt and safety wired. Go figure.</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Charles McCall <<a href="mailto:charlesmccall@gmail.com">charlesmccall@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Friday, February 7, 2014 11:42 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>'Peter Cajthaml' <<a href="mailto:pcajthaml@gmail.com">pcajthaml@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com">detomaso@poca.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com">detomaso@poca.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [DeTomaso] Shifting<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(55, 66, 74); ">I ALWAYS shift into first before shifting into reverse, as it helps a ton, and may even solve your problem<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(55, 66, 74); "><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> DeTomaso [<a href="mailto:detomaso-bounces@poca.com">mailto:detomaso-bounces@poca.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter Cajthaml<br>
<b>Sent:</b> viernes, 7 de febrero de 2014 20:17<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com">detomaso@poca.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DeTomaso] Shifting<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<pre style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">All: thanks for the great advice, and the lively discussion; I will start by bleeding the system and looking at the master cylinder.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Also, off-the board I received advice to try the 2nd-1st-reverse shifting sequence when the problem occurs. Seems easier than turning off the engine!<br><br><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Peter<br>#2761<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><br>>>><i>The fact that it goes into reverse with the engine off leads me to <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>believe that the issue isn't a linkage problem, but rather, a problem with <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>insufficient clutch disengagement. An easy way to tell, though, is to simply <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>remove the shift gate, and see if that makes any difference.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Pantera vendors sell an aftermarket shift gate which has the same lateral <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>dimensions as the stock one, but is considerably thicker. This illustrates <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a fundamental lack of understanding of basic geometry. The thicker <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(taller) the shift gate is, the less lateral movement will be allowed before the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>shift lever hits the edge of the gate. In order to allow equal side-to-side <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>movement as a stock gate, the opening has to either be wider, or beveled to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>match the angle of the shift lever--neither of which they do.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>So, if you can pull your shift gate off, then cheerfully snick into all the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>gears including reverse, the problem is either your shift gate (if it's <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>aftermarket), or simple (but maddening) adjustment of the linkage. If you <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>have a stock shift gate, it may well be that your shift lever isn't perfectly <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>centered, and needs to be adjusted ever so slightly to the right. You want <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to have enough throw to the left to get it into reverse, but you don't want <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>it adjusted so far that 4th and 5th become problematic.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Since removing the gate is an easy test, do that first. If that fails to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>fix things, then the problem is almost assuredly insufficient clutch throw <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(disengagement). The synchros will take a bit of a beating and will allow <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>shifting up and down the forward gears without 100% disengagement (although <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>that creates wear, not a good thing) but reverse is normally recalcitrant <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>unless the clutch releases completely.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>A PCNC member was recently struggling with this issue, and like you, he had <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>replaced his slave cylinder as well as his master cylinder. In the past, <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I've said that the function of the clutch is adjusted exclusively at the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>slave cylinder, and the master cylinder pushrod adjustment is only used to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>adjust the resting location of the pedal. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>While this is true of the early cars, I failed to take into account the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>monkey-motion clutch effort reduction linkage which was introduced with the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Pantera L. While your car is early enough that it wouldn't have had it from <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the factory, mine is too, and yet mine had it, apparently retrofitted at some <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>point.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>There is a "T"-shaped hoozit that acts as an intermediary between the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>clutch pedal shaft, and the pushrod on the master cylinder. Once you think <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>about it, it's easy to see that this hoozit needs to be oriented at about a <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>45-degree angle (towards the rear) at rest; depressing the pedal moves it <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>through an arc, and it winds up at about a 45-degree angle towards the front. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This provides maximum stroke of the piston. (The actual value may be <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>something other than 45 degrees, but even if it's 30 to the rear, then 30 to the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>front, the point is simply that it needs to be more or less the same).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>If the clutch master cylinder pushrod is too short, the arc then causes <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>movement in the wrong direction. As the pedal shaft acts on the back of the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>piece, the front of it, rather than (mostly) going forward, instead will <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(mostly) go down towards the ground, resulting in measurably less master <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>cylinder piston movement, with a commensurate lack of movement at the slave <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>cylinder.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>So, first check to see if you have this piece in your system. A photo of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the system at rest is attached, taken from the perspective of the center of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the car, looking directly outboard.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>The gold-colored piece at the bottom is the support for the T-shaped piece, <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>whose long leg attaches to it. The two short legs of the T-shaped piece <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>are attached to the clutch master pushrod, and to a pair of links which are <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>attached to the shaft which is rotated by movement of the clutch pedal.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>(Chuck Melton has a terrific video of this beastie in action, on the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Provamo website. Perhaps Chuck can post a link?)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>The Ford TSB #10, article 89 (page 9) gives the optimum length of the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pushrod going into the master, of 2.91-2.95 inches, from the center of the eyelet <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>on the pushrod clevis, to the mounting surface where the master bolts to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the aluminum pedal bracket.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>(Article 88 prescribes a length for the slave pushrod of 3.07-3.09 inches, <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>from the center of the eyelet to the bullet nose of the pushrod, but this is <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>something that would be adjusted to compensate for clutch wear, different <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>installed finger heights for different brand clutches, etc.)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>If you don't have the effort reduction kit, you can still see how proper <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pushrod length is important. You want as much of the rotational motion of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the clutch shaft as possible to be translated into horizontal motion, which <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>compresses the master cylinder.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Assuming there is no overt mechanical/adjustment issue, and the seals are <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>still holding up, then the likely culprit is air in the system.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>><i> <I replaced a bad clutch slave cylinder about 5 years ago with the stock <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>><i> OEM unit. I recently saw that an upgraded stainless steel slave is <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>><i> available - would that improve the situation? <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>><i> <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>>>><i>The material isn't important. Some aftermarket slave cylinders boast <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>'long throw' which they achieve by using a smaller-than-stock piston. This <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>results in greater extension for a given amount of master cylinder (and <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>clutch pedal) movement, with the tradeoff being slightly higher effort required <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>due to the reduced mechanical advantage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>><i> > If not, how do I adjust the clutch so it disengages completely when <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>><i> hot? I plan to change the fluid and bleed the system again, but have done so <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>><i> many times before without an improvement.<o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>><i> <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>><i> >>>An important consideration is clutch slave pushrod adjustment. When <o:p></o:p></i></pre>
<pre>you depress the pedal, does it descend a notable distance with relatively <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>light pedal effort, before actual clutch action starts to happen? If so, then <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a percentage of your clutch hydraulic action is being wasted, by moving the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>'fingers' of the clutch fork through free space.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Have you ever had your gearbox off to see what it looks like in there? <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Here is a drawing from the factory parts book, showing the lever that attaches <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to the slave cylinder, and the shaft that it is attached to; inside the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>bellhousing this shaft is pinned to the clutch fork:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.panterasbywilkinson.com/images/final_catalog/gif/ill13a.gif">http://www.panterasbywilkinson.com/images/final_catalog/gif/ill13a.gif</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>You want the fingers of this clutch fork to be very close to, but not <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>touching, the throwout bearing when the clutch is engaged (foot off the pedal). <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>When you step on the pedal, you want the fingers to initially pass through <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>free space, a very short distance (perhaps 1/8 inch or so), and then touch <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the throwout bearing; further pedal movement results in the fingers <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>depressing the bearing which in turn releases the clutch.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have too much free travel here, when the clutch master bottoms out <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(pedal almost against the carpet) the clutch won't be fully released. This <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>can be felt easily enough from behind the wheel, if the clutch engages with <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the pedal very close to the carpet. This also can be felt at the start of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pedal movement, as very gentle initial movement with not much really <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>happening, followed by greater resistance. Ideally, you want something like 1/2 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>or 3/4 of an inch of clutch pedal movement before clutch things start <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>happening.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>The aforementioned TSB has very poor guidance on establishing the amount of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>free play. It prescribes various amounts of clearance and lengths of this <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and that, without really describing what you're trying to achieve, and how <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to adjust things in order to get what you want.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Hopefully you can get some relief from this problem. There is no good <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reason for a car to grind going into reverse, much less be impossible to shift. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> It's just a matter of finding the cause and eliminating it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Good luck!<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Mike<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-------------- next part --------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
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