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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#37424A'>I ALWAYS shift into first before shifting into reverse, as it helps a ton, and may even solve your problem<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#37424A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces@poca.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter Cajthaml<br><b>Sent:</b> viernes, 7 de febrero de 2014 20:17<br><b>To:</b> detomaso@poca.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DeTomaso] Shifting<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><pre style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>All: thanks for the great advice, and the lively discussion; I will start by bleeding the system and looking at the master cylinder.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Also, off-the board I received advice to try the 2nd-1st-reverse shifting sequence when the problem occurs. Seems easier than turning off the engine!<br><br><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Peter<br>#2761<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><br>>>><i>The fact that it goes into reverse with the engine off leads me to <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>believe that the issue isn't a linkage problem, but rather, a problem with <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>insufficient clutch disengagement. An easy way to tell, though, is to simply <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>remove the shift gate, and see if that makes any difference.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Pantera vendors sell an aftermarket shift gate which has the same lateral <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dimensions as the stock one, but is considerably thicker. This illustrates <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>a fundamental lack of understanding of basic geometry. The thicker <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(taller) the shift gate is, the less lateral movement will be allowed before the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>shift lever hits the edge of the gate. In order to allow equal side-to-side <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>movement as a stock gate, the opening has to either be wider, or beveled to <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>match the angle of the shift lever--neither of which they do.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>So, if you can pull your shift gate off, then cheerfully snick into all the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>gears including reverse, the problem is either your shift gate (if it's <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>aftermarket), or simple (but maddening) adjustment of the linkage. If you <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>have a stock shift gate, it may well be that your shift lever isn't perfectly <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>centered, and needs to be adjusted ever so slightly to the right. You want <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to have enough throw to the left to get it into reverse, but you don't want <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>it adjusted so far that 4th and 5th become problematic.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Since removing the gate is an easy test, do that first. If that fails to <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>fix things, then the problem is almost assuredly insufficient clutch throw <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(disengagement). The synchros will take a bit of a beating and will allow <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>shifting up and down the forward gears without 100% disengagement (although <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>that creates wear, not a good thing) but reverse is normally recalcitrant <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>unless the clutch releases completely.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>A PCNC member was recently struggling with this issue, and like you, he had <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>replaced his slave cylinder as well as his master cylinder. In the past, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I've said that the function of the clutch is adjusted exclusively at the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>slave cylinder, and the master cylinder pushrod adjustment is only used to <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>adjust the resting location of the pedal. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>While this is true of the early cars, I failed to take into account the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>monkey-motion clutch effort reduction linkage which was introduced with the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Pantera L. While your car is early enough that it wouldn't have had it from <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the factory, mine is too, and yet mine had it, apparently retrofitted at some <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>point.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>There is a "T"-shaped hoozit that acts as an intermediary between the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>clutch pedal shaft, and the pushrod on the master cylinder. Once you think <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>about it, it's easy to see that this hoozit needs to be oriented at about a <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>45-degree angle (towards the rear) at rest; depressing the pedal moves it <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>through an arc, and it winds up at about a 45-degree angle towards the front. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>This provides maximum stroke of the piston. (The actual value may be <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>something other than 45 degrees, but even if it's 30 to the rear, then 30 to the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>front, the point is simply that it needs to be more or less the same).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If the clutch master cylinder pushrod is too short, the arc then causes <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>movement in the wrong direction. As the pedal shaft acts on the back of the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>piece, the front of it, rather than (mostly) going forward, instead will <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(mostly) go down towards the ground, resulting in measurably less master <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>cylinder piston movement, with a commensurate lack of movement at the slave <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>cylinder.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>So, first check to see if you have this piece in your system. A photo of <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the system at rest is attached, taken from the perspective of the center of <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the car, looking directly outboard.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The gold-colored piece at the bottom is the support for the T-shaped piece, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>whose long leg attaches to it. The two short legs of the T-shaped piece <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>are attached to the clutch master pushrod, and to a pair of links which are <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>attached to the shaft which is rotated by movement of the clutch pedal.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>(Chuck Melton has a terrific video of this beastie in action, on the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Provamo website. Perhaps Chuck can post a link?)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The Ford TSB #10, article 89 (page 9) gives the optimum length of the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>pushrod going into the master, of 2.91-2.95 inches, from the center of the eyelet <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>on the pushrod clevis, to the mounting surface where the master bolts to <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the aluminum pedal bracket.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>(Article 88 prescribes a length for the slave pushrod of 3.07-3.09 inches, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>from the center of the eyelet to the bullet nose of the pushrod, but this is <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>something that would be adjusted to compensate for clutch wear, different <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>installed finger heights for different brand clutches, etc.)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If you don't have the effort reduction kit, you can still see how proper <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>pushrod length is important. You want as much of the rotational motion of <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the clutch shaft as possible to be translated into horizontal motion, which <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>compresses the master cylinder.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Assuming there is no overt mechanical/adjustment issue, and the seals are <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>still holding up, then the likely culprit is air in the system.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><i> <I replaced a bad clutch slave cylinder about 5 years ago with the stock <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>><i> OEM unit. I recently saw that an upgraded stainless steel slave is <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>><i> available - would that improve the situation? <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>><i> <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>>>><i>The material isn't important. Some aftermarket slave cylinders boast <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>'long throw' which they achieve by using a smaller-than-stock piston. This <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>results in greater extension for a given amount of master cylinder (and <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>clutch pedal) movement, with the tradeoff being slightly higher effort required <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>due to the reduced mechanical advantage.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><i> > If not, how do I adjust the clutch so it disengages completely when <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>><i> hot? I plan to change the fluid and bleed the system again, but have done so <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>><i> many times before without an improvement.<o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>><i> <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>><i> >>>An important consideration is clutch slave pushrod adjustment. When <o:p></o:p></i></pre><pre>you depress the pedal, does it descend a notable distance with relatively <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>light pedal effort, before actual clutch action starts to happen? If so, then <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>a percentage of your clutch hydraulic action is being wasted, by moving the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>'fingers' of the clutch fork through free space.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Have you ever had your gearbox off to see what it looks like in there? <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Here is a drawing from the factory parts book, showing the lever that attaches <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to the slave cylinder, and the shaft that it is attached to; inside the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>bellhousing this shaft is pinned to the clutch fork:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.panterasbywilkinson.com/images/final_catalog/gif/ill13a.gif">http://www.panterasbywilkinson.com/images/final_catalog/gif/ill13a.gif</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>You want the fingers of this clutch fork to be very close to, but not <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>touching, the throwout bearing when the clutch is engaged (foot off the pedal). <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>When you step on the pedal, you want the fingers to initially pass through <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>free space, a very short distance (perhaps 1/8 inch or so), and then touch <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the throwout bearing; further pedal movement results in the fingers <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>depressing the bearing which in turn releases the clutch.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If you have too much free travel here, when the clutch master bottoms out <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(pedal almost against the carpet) the clutch won't be fully released. This <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>can be felt easily enough from behind the wheel, if the clutch engages with <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the pedal very close to the carpet. This also can be felt at the start of <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>pedal movement, as very gentle initial movement with not much really <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>happening, followed by greater resistance. Ideally, you want something like 1/2 <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>or 3/4 of an inch of clutch pedal movement before clutch things start <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>happening.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The aforementioned TSB has very poor guidance on establishing the amount of <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>free play. It prescribes various amounts of clearance and lengths of this <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and that, without really describing what you're trying to achieve, and how <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to adjust things in order to get what you want.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Hopefully you can get some relief from this problem. There is no good <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>reason for a car to grind going into reverse, much less be impossible to shift. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> It's just a matter of finding the cause and eliminating it.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Good luck!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Mike<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>-------------- next part --------------<o:p></o:p></pre></div></div></body></html>