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It's my opinion that Fluidyne did everything they could to try and
-find- a reason to replace the radiator for free due to workmanship,
but they couldn't find anything wrong that was do to their design or
assembly methods. We on this list haven't been made privy to any of
the direct communications between Bob and Fluidyne so we don't
really know what if anything Bob was willing to let them do to find
the problem.<br>
<br>
I would be willing to presume they found the tube ballooned before
they ever took it apart or hacked it up. That alone probably told
them it had to be replaced, so at that point they wanted to know why
and then hacked it open. Finding no manufacturing defect, they
didn't find liability on their part.<br>
<br>
Bob would have to have purchased a new one either way.<br>
Asa Jay<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
& Shelley Marie
Spokane, WA
******************************
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.racingagainstautism.com">http://www.racingagainstautism.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.teampanteraracing.com">http://www.teampanteraracing.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism">http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism</a></pre>
<br>
On 1/26/2014 11:21 PM, Boyd Casey wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALsQ=ctes2fG936JW-1sOztfH95=brzYS2Ji5mXyD-WrpvQcjA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Aside from the questions being debated about
the radiator flowing in one direction and not the other or if
the radiator was even defective or not. I think it was
inappropriate for Fluidyne to do destructive testing on the
radiator Bob sent them with out clearing it with Bob first. By
destroying the radiator they forced him to replace it and
prevented anyone else from testing it in the future. If your
supposed to be doing an investigation you don't destroy the
evidence!. Now Bob has no way to prove his ( and his mechanics)
claims. It seems to me that Fluidyne could test whether their
radiator was working as it should with out cutting it in half.
If they found that it wasn't cooling then they could have asked
for permission to do a forensic examination to determining the
reason it wasn't cooling to specs. They had no right to destroy
Bob's radiator with out getting Bob's permission. They owe him a
new radiator just for doing that!
<div>
Boyd</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Himes,
Terry (397C) <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov" target="_blank">terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family:
Calibri,sans-serif; word-wrap: break-word;">
<div>
<div>Hmmm? I dunno about this. But I'll let the
expert mechanics duke it out.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But I bought my 1974 Pantera in 2000, it was
completely stock, with 38,000 mi. I always ran a
perfect 190deg </div>
<div>(at least that's what the temp gauge said) in
traffic or open road. Even all trips to Las Vegas for
POCA every year</div>
<div>with AC full blast with NO overheating. When one
of the original fans gave out I replace both with 5 or
6 blade </div>
<div>(can't remember which) fans and again… never an
overheating problem. Dunno, maybe it's just luck.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 16pt;
color: maroon; font-family: Georgia,serif;">Terry
W. Himes</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 16pt;
color: red; font-family: Verdana,sans-serif;">JPL</span></b><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial,sans-serif;"> Jet Propulsion Laboratory</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
color: teal; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Deep
Impact Sequence Team Lead</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<font color="#008080" face="Arial,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 13px;"><b>Deep Impact
Spacecraft Engineer & Activity Lead</b></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Phone: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28818%29%20393-6261"
value="+18183936261" target="_blank">(818)
393-6261</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Cell: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28818%29%20653-8213"
value="+18186538213" target="_blank">(818)
653-8213</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Fax: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28818%29%20393-3147"
value="+18183933147" target="_blank">(818)
393-3147</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
color: teal; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov"
style="color: blue;" target="_blank">thimes@jpl.nasa.gov</a></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt;"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style="border-right: medium none; padding: 3pt 0in
0in; text-align: left; font-size: 11pt; border-width:
1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none;
border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
-moz-use-text-color; font-family: Calibri;">
<span style="font-weight: bold;">From: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:LEVITT1946@aol.com" target="_blank">LEVITT1946@aol.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:LEVITT1946@aol.com" target="_blank">LEVITT1946@aol.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Date: </span>Sunday,
January 26, 2014 11:28 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">To: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com" target="_blank">detomaso@poca.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com" target="_blank">detomaso@poca.com</a>>
<div class="im">
<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject: </span>[DeTomaso]
FLUIDYNE RADIATOR STORY<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">
<font color="#000000" face="Arial">
<div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>Hello All,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Many of you go thru high heat issues
with the Pantera. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>When I purchased my car in 2008 the
previous owner told me if I was in traffic
to just pull over . I was determined to
cure this car from high heat exposure.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The first things I attached on the car
was the following:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Replaced Water Pump with Hi Flow Water
Pump </div>
<div>Replaced Thermostat ( many times)</div>
<div>Replaced the old brass radiator with an
new Aluminum radiator from Summit.</div>
<div>Replaced Meriah fans with new sucker
fans</div>
<div>Replaced antifreeze and purged air from
system (many times)</div>
<div>Did complete Tune Up. ( many times)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Now it was time for the big test. I got
on the highway and the car was holding
temp at a steady 180. The minute I got off
the highway the temp started rising to the
point of boil over. I could hear my
pressure bottle perculating.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This went on for years. I drove the car
across the USA in the Gumball Rally.As
long as the car was moving I knew we would
be ok and we made it from Santa Monica
California to Miami Beach safely.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The car was still running hot so I
tracked down an NOS Pressure tank and
overflow bottle from a place in Modena
Italy. I thought maybe there was something
wrong with my pressure and overflow
bottles.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>My local mechanic replaced the pressure
and overflow bottles and the car started
to overheat immediately. The only part to
look at now was the FLUIDYNE Radiator that
I had replaced 4 years ago when I
purchased the car.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We let the car cool a little and then
restarted the car. My mechanic said he was
going to run water over the front of the
radiator when I started the car. I was in
the car while it was running to see if the
water temp would lower as he ran the hose
on the front of the FLUIDYNE radiator. The
temp was lowering! . Then he said shut the
car. My Mechanic said that since I had
sucker fans my car should have been
sprayed with water when he ran the water
on the front of the radiator. Instead the
car was DRY . This meant that the radiator
was now allowing the water to flow through
and thus no air could flow through either.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Next step was to reverse the fans to
blow out the front of the car and leave it
idling in place . The car ran at a steady
180 for 30 minutes and the temp did not
rise. This told us that the radiator was
fault and only flowed ONE WAY .</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I could not believe that the radiator
could be faulty. I drove home and cleaned
the radiator with a pressure washer and
ruined every fin on the radiator.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Then I contacted the owner of Fluidyne.
I explained what we had done and in
summary we felt we had a one way radiator
that could only flow air one way . I also
admitted that I had pressure washed the
radiator and ruined the outside fins. Hard
to believe but TRUE.</div>
<div>He asked me to send the radiator to him
and if they faund any defect in
workmanship he would replace the radiator
at no charge. He came up with every
excuse possible. He cut the radiator in
half to look at the internals of the
radiator. </div>
<div> </div>
<div><strong><u>Here is FLUIDYNES actual
response</u></strong>:</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans
MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">Good
Morning Robert,</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans
MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);"> </span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><u><span style="font-family: 'Comic
Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">Further
to our investigation</span></u></i><i><span
style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS';
color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">:</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 10pt;">·</span><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">Your radiator
was inspected upon receipt and found
to be ‘bloated’ … swollen in the
middle of the core, consistent with
symptoms of over-pressurization.</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 10pt;">·</span><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">The fans were
tested while installed on the core
and operation was verified. They
seemed to pull a reasonable amount
of air.
</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 10pt;">·</span><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">The fans were
then removed and inspected. The
fans are “pusher” fans… not “puller”
fans as you were told. [See pic 3
to see arrow markings]</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1.5in;"><span
style="font-family: 'Courier New';
color: rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size:
10pt;">o</span><span style="color:
rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">They most
likely were wired to work as
“pullers” but the performance would
be significantly hampered
considering the pitch of the blade
is backwards</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 10pt;">·</span><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">The
Inlet/Outlet water tank was removed
to inspect the core. Debris was
found near the top & bottom [see
pic 1 and 2] which had plugged
several tubes.</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1.5in;"><span
style="font-family: 'Courier New';
color: rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size:
10pt;">o</span><span style="color:
rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">This is not a
significant blockage but we noted
that foreign debris was indeed
inside the core.
</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 10pt;">·</span><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">The Return
water tank was then removed [pic 4]
which showed a significant amount of
engine oil has passed thru the
core.
</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1.5in;"><span
style="font-family: 'Courier New';
color: rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size:
10pt;">o</span><span style="color:
rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">We suspect
this oil was introduced to the
radiator by failure of a cylinder
head gasket.</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1.5in;"><span
style="font-family: 'Courier New';
color: rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size:
10pt;">o</span><span style="color:
rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">I appears the
oil remained in the core for some
time as it would not wipe off.
</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1.5in;"><span
style="font-family: 'Courier New';
color: rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size:
10pt;">o</span><span style="color:
rgb(29, 27, 17); font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">We also
assume this failure created the high
pressure event that caused the core
to be over-pressurized.</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 10pt;">·</span><span
style="color: rgb(29, 27, 17);
font-size: 7pt;">
</span><i><span style="font-family:
'Comic Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27,
17); font-size: 10pt;">The Core
shows no internal structural damage
and the outside structure [air fin]
was heavily damaged as you know and
has rendered the core useless.</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans
MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);"> </span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><u><span style="font-family: 'Comic
Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">Conclusion</span></u></i><i><span
style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS';
color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">:</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans
MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">The
outside air fin has sustained
significant damage and 90% of the
louvers have been bent shut in both
directions. The radiator core
appears to be sound. We noted no
failures of our Materials or
Workmanship nor evidence of
Electrolysis erosion. The
over-pressurization event, while it
likely created the ‘bloated’ shape
of the unit, does not appear to have
affected the core’s performance.
</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans
MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);"> </span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans
MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">The
only anomaly we discovered was the
fact that as installed, the pusher
fans were likely wired to run
backwards as puller fans. This
creates significant turbulence in
and around the fan housing and would
reduce performance by as much as 50%</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans
MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);"> </span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><u><span style="font-family: 'Comic
Sans MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">Next
Steps</span></u></i><i><span
style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS';
color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">:</span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<i><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans
MS'; color: rgb(29, 27, 17);">As I
mentioned, we have initiated
production of a replacement radiator
[with the new 5-row Pantera core]
for you. Per your instructions, we
will install your fan temp sensors
on the new core. You have also
asked us to install your fans but in
light of the problems noted here, I
believe you may want to consider
replacing these units. We can
install new Spal units [the only
brand I handle] if you prefer and I
also suggest we install a Zinc Anode
in the drain bung to protect against
Electrolysis in the future.</span></i></p>
</div>
<div>All of FLUIDYNES excuses and blaming
the engine had cylinder head gasket leaks
was a bunch of BS. I ended up paying for
the new radiator and fans because I had no
choice . Fluidyne should have stood behind
their product but they DID NOT.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We installed the new radiator on the
car as well as two lights on the dash that
would tell me when each fan was on and
off. This way I knew the fans were
working.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We let the car run for a solid hour at
the shop and the car never rose over 180
degrees. The high heat problem that
existed for years was finally gone. My
mechanic said that once I hit the highway
the fans would actually shut off. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>On the way home from the shop both fans
were RUNNING as they should. I entered the
highway and in five minutes one fan shut
down and then the other. I now had total
confidence in the car.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I guess the cylinder head gasket leaks
that Fluidyne said my engine had,
repaired itself . BS</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Just thought you guys should know.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best ,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Levitt</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>
</span>
</div>
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