<div dir="ltr">Because that's how it was done ( No computers in 1962/63 except for govt ., a few universities and Fortune 100 companies ) , but the records existed and were easy to <div>transfer and research. They also were in order, car 7 was built after car 6 and before car 8.</div>
<div>We can't say that at all. </div><div><br></div><div>The whole thread was about not even knowing how many were built and nobody does....yet.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Michael</div><div><br></div><div>
<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Gray Gregory <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rgg@gregorycook.com" target="_blank">rgg@gregorycook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">My bad. I forgot you were referring to Ferrari GTO’s. As for those Ferrari records; they were all paper records stored in ordinary file cabinets just like DeTomaso
did with the European market Panteras. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Gray<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:michael@michaelshortt.com" target="_blank">michael@michaelshortt.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:michaelsavga@gmail.com" target="_blank">michaelsavga@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gray Gregory<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com" target="_blank">detomaso@poca.com</a>; <a href="mailto:shawkins777@comcast.net" target="_blank">shawkins777@comcast.net</a></span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">GM? 39 Ferrari GTO's, Shelby, Rootes and Lamborghini kept good records, don't go there are the German cars, they keep such good records<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">that many of them were hanged as a result.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As far a book with your car in it, it would have been like Automobile Quarterly, a coffee table kind of book, but the market spoke ( or not ) and it went away.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Every idea isn't a winner, but the jackets were and having the new hood latches were, the underhood pads not so much, ( sold 3 out of 5 sets I had made )<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">and I'm having issues with my vendor on the reproduced tool roll, 5 have been made, 3 in leather and 2 in vinyl, he is looking for the right hardware buckles<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to finish them up. They look amazing. and for those who are interested, I'm looking for repro tools, the aluminum fold ed jack from a Porsche 944 is a perfect fit in the jack pocket<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">and weighs less than half as much as a steel jack and it will not rust.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don't do these things to make money, I do them for fun and to do my part towards keeping the cars and the marque alive.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Michael<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Gray Gregory <<a href="mailto:rgg@gregorycook.com" target="_blank">rgg@gregorycook.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I guarantee you they went through dusty old records to figure out how many Lambos and Sunbeams etc.
there are out there. Now GTO’s are a completely different matter as GM likely had much more sophisticated record keeping and Shelby, who knows? If Shelby was responsible I’m sure they too were just paper records in a file cabinet. If Ford was responsible obviously
they would be on par with GM. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As far as someone going to all the effort to do it; obviously it will require someone motivated by
more than just a desire to please curious Pantera owners.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Gray</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:michael@michaelshortt.com" target="_blank">michael@michaelshortt.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:michaelsavga@gmail.com" target="_blank">michaelsavga@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 05, 2013 12:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gray Gregory<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:shawkins777@comcast.net" target="_blank">shawkins777@comcast.net</a>;
<a href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com" target="_blank">detomaso@poca.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What he didn't mention was that he went there (to Italy) and find his info.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">6,000 people aren't going to do that, or have the resources or supplied resources as well as the time.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I had the information, I would post it, I can not think of a better sales or recruitment tool for a certificate business or registry than<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to be able to state that you have THE unequivocal list of XXXX cars. Can place each and every car in time and space<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">and verify that your car is #XXXX out of XXXX of which XXXX remain.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Of course that would imply some business acumen and marketing ability.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We group buy brakes, lights, wheels, etc. Why not Birth Certificates, <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'll step up and offer a reasonable fee ( equal to a Mustang Marti report ), but as a part of that, I want to know<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">how many there were in total, year by year, model by model.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">and I dispute that somebody had to go through dusty old records to know how many GTOs, Countachs, Tigers or Cobras were built.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'd say that their manufacturers kept records in a normal manner ( no steno pads ).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">And as we discussed on the 72 Pushbutton, ( built in 71 and titled in 72 ) , everybody knows that left over 69 Shelby's were 70 Shelbys, etc.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">and that some, if not a great many 74 L's were built in 1973.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This information doesn't make them any less of a car, in fact, given the improvements between the first 300 pushbutton cars and the<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">72 pushbutton that came over 2,000 cars later, I'd rather have the later one, you can't possibly think that the only thing left unchanged were the doors.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Michael<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Gray Gregory <<a href="mailto:rgg@gregorycook.com" target="_blank">rgg@gregorycook.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Exactly! As Mike has pointed out the same factory records exist for DeTomaso as with the other marques
you mention. There’s no state secrets here it’s just that nobody has put forth the effort to compile them into one easily accessible place. The Shelby info you quoted is a perfect example. Those numbers didn’t magically appear. Someone did a lot of digging
through old paper records to compile all that info and tally it into total cars produced and then break that number down into the various sub totals you listed.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Maybe someday someone will be so motivated to do that with the DeTomaso records?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Gray </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> DeTomaso [mailto:<a href="mailto:detomaso-bounces@poca.com" target="_blank">detomaso-bounces@poca.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:shawkins777@comcast.net" target="_blank">shawkins777@comcast.net</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 05, 2013 8:45 AM<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com" target="_blank">detomaso@poca.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I would guess it's because no one has wanted to know bad enough to do the research.<br>
<br>
Steve</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"<a href="mailto:michael@michaelshortt.com" target="_blank">michael@michaelshortt.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:michaelsavga@gmail.com" target="_blank">michaelsavga@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Mike Drew" <<a href="mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com" target="_blank">MikeLDrew@aol.com</a>>,
<a href="mailto:detomaso@poca.com" target="_blank">detomaso@poca.com</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, November 5, 2013 6:14:50 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Why are you so angry?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Unless of course it was a pushbutton 1972 pre-L.<br>
(Out of sequence serial number, built one year, side aside and titled the next year 1,600 cars later)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Or one of TWO known cars in the 8,000 series of numbers which may mean that 998 serials numbers were skipped.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Or unless it was a two pod dash 73.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Or one with a flat deck lid.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Or a 2000 series chassis built in 1973.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Or built by Amerisport, etc.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">So if all of this is known, why is it some sort of state secret?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Exactly how many Panteras were built in total and if possible by year and or model?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I think a lot of us would like to have a definitive answer and not be told to go look it up because the respodent also does not know. Like asking my Mom for help with Trig homework.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">You know, like 39 Ferrari GTOs,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Lamborghini Countach<br>
2,042</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sunbeam Tigers - 7,083</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Shelby Cobras<br>
Leaf Spring Cobras:260 ci engine Street Cars - 62<br>
260 ci engine Factory Works racers - 4<br>
260 ci engine Factory-prepared racers - 1<br>
260 ci engine Independently-prepared racers - 7<br>
260 ci engine Dragonsnake - 1<br>
Total 260 ci engine production - 75 <br>
289 ci engine Street Cars - 453<br>
289 ci engine Factory Works racers:-Standard Competition - 2-<br>
Sebring race cars - 3-LeMans race cars - 2-LeMans replica racers - 3-<br>
427 Prototype Flip-Top - 1-<br>
289 FIA cars - 5-Daytona Coupes - <br>
6-USSRC Roadsters - 6<br>
Total 289 ci Works race cars - 28<br>
289 ci engine Factory-prepared competition cars:-Standard Competition - 2-LeMans prototype - 1-LeMans replicas - 3-<br>
USRRC roadsters - 5<br>
Total Factory prepared competition cars - 11<br>
289 ci engine Independently prepared competition cars - 21<br>
289 ci engine Dragonsnakes - 4<br>
289 ci engine bare chassis for Mercer Cobra - 1<br>
289 ci engine Willment Racing Coupe - 1<br>
289 ci engine COB/COX Street Cars - 59<br>
289 ci engine COB/COX Race Cars - 2<br>
Total 289 ci engine Cobra - 580<br>
Total Leaf Spring Cobra 260 & 289 cars - 655<br>
Coil Spring Cobras:<br>
427 Street Cars - 260<br>
427 Prototype Competition Roadsters - 2 <br>
427 Production Competition Roadsters - 19 <br>
427 Semi-Competition Roadsters (S/C) - 31<br>
427 Daytona Super Coupe - 1<br>
427 Chassis only - 3<br>
289 COB/COX Cars - 27<br>
(427 Paramount Film Cars - 5, have been removed from the original Cobra totals)<br>
Total Coil Spring Cobra - 343 <br>
GRAND TOTAL Leaf and Coil spring cars - 998</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Michael</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">On Nov 5, 2013 2:20 AM, <<a href="mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com" target="_blank">MikeLDrew@aol.com</a>> wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Geneva","serif""><br>
In a message dated 11/4/13 18 51 10, <a href="mailto:michaelsavga@gmail.com" target="_blank">
michaelsavga@gmail.com</a> writes:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Geneva","serif""><br>
Not when almost all other marques have lists that are date, time, color, option specific with a signature of the final quality check foreman.<br>
It would be nice to know and not speculate which is all that any of us can do at present.<br>
<br>
<br>
>>>According to Ford records, my car was one of 2,131 Panteras produced for Ford during 1972. I assume that's the 1972 model (not calendar) year. It was one of 445 produced in July, one of 558 cars painted yellow in 1972, and one of 123 that were ordered
from the same DSO. It was released for sale on 3/15/1973, serialized on 3/30/73 (whatever that means) and sold for the first time on 8/7/73 by Merriam Motors in Wallingford, CT.<br>
<br>
It actually entered the USA in Baltimore, on a ship named Mare-By-Sea, having been shipped from Italy on August 5th, 1972.
<br>
<br>
This kind of data is available for every single Pantera sold by Ford in the USA simply by ordering a Marti report. Although the data is normally VIN-specific, simply by getting one report for each model year, additive numbers can be established to show the
total number of Panteras imported (probably not counting the pre-production prototypes etc. used for crash-testing and federal certification, although I know the VINS of those cars because I have the testing reports). In fact, by getting Marti reports for
a car of each color, from each year, it would be very easy to know exactly how many cars (both by year, and for all four years) were produced in each color, etc. All you'd have to do is ask them for the information.
<br>
<br>
And as I said before, all the records are available for the non-US-market and post-Ford cars from De Tomaso in Modena. While they don't have any statistical information, they have everything you would want to know (to include very specific information on the
various modified engines that many cars were equipped with) for each individual car. Invoices, correspondence, engine build data sheets, etc...it's all there. I've seen them with my own eyes.<br>
<br>
Don't speculate that records don't exist just because you haven't attempted to access them, and journalists have been too lazy to do so....<br>
<br>
Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Michael L. Shortt<br>
Savannah, Georgia<br>
<a href="http://www.michaelshortt.com" target="_blank">www.michaelshortt.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:michael@michaelshortt.com" target="_blank">michael@michaelshortt.com</a><br>
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Michael L. Shortt<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Michael L. Shortt<br>Savannah, Georgia<br><a href="http://www.michaelshortt.com">www.michaelshortt.com</a><br><a href="mailto:michael@michaelshortt.com">michael@michaelshortt.com</a><br>
912-232-9390<br><br> <br>This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy<br>Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally<br>privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified<br>
that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this<br>communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you<br>have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
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