[DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Christopher Kimball
ChrisVKimball at msn.com
Mon Apr 22 11:26:30 EDT 2024
😅
________________________________
From: Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2024 5:58 AM
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>; Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>; chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com>
Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Chris, thank you for an edition of "Captain My Captain" this morning. It could have only been better by being hampered somehow by some of the Seven Deadly Sins. Good luck and sweet driving. BILL Lewis
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 11:26 PM
To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>; chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com>
Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Hi Mike (and forum readers),
I spent the last several hours disassembling the entire ignition switch mechanism, and for those who are interested, here is, in excruciating detail, what happened:
I have said many times I’m not much of a mechanic, but I can follow directions fairly well. Larry Finch was kind enough to send me some pictures of how to remove the tumbler, so in another act of purest optimism, I grabbed my flashlight, a few screwdrivers, and my socket set and climbed under the dash.
First I had to partially remove the plate holding one of the 6x9, 3-way speakers I mounted under the dash. (I must say, that plate was very well constructed. It was fabricated by Finn’s Auto Restoration, and replaced a rather lame one I had installed made out of thin plywood).
Once that was out of the way I used a hex wrench to remove two bolts under the steering column, followed by the two large bolts located just behind the hex bolts. At that point the entire steering column lowered so I could take out the two screws on each side of the plastic housing surrounding the turn-signal stalk and ignition keyhole.
So far, so good.
The next step was to remove two flat-head screws to take off the electrical cylinder which is the actual ignition switch. Just for fun I used a screwdriver to turn it, and the car started right up. That was good, since I figured if all else failed I could just mount that to the dashboard and attached a large screwdriver to my keyring.
I covered the exposed terminals on the ignition switch with tape so I wouldn’t end up causing a Pantera-destroying fire (not to mention my garage and house) and surveyed the landscape.
The tumbler is mounted in a metal structure which seemed to be attached with some sort of press-fit shafts designed to never be removed. That was OK, though, since Larry Finch’s pictures also showed how to remove the tumbler from the steering column.
You see, when the clever Italians assembled this part of the car, they had so much faith and confidence the tumbler would never break, they installed it with a spring clip located inside the bomb-proof housing—totally inaccessible to mere mortals. Not only that, they didn’t mount the spring clip longitudinally, so slight pressure would release the tumbler, oh no, they mounted it sideways so there is no way to get it to release and free the tumbler.
But here is where it is a great thing to have the combined brainpower of all the Pantera owners out there. Larry showed me via his pictures how one can drill a hole directly above where the spring clip resides, enabling the spring clip to be depressed by a thin awl, thereby releasing the tumbler.
The picture provided by Larry showed a digital micrometer measuring .628 of an inch from the face of the tumbler to the place where the spring clip access hole would need to be drilled. It was 180 degrees from a small mark on the chrome face of the ignition tumbler where the key inserts.
Although I may have some kind of micrometer manufactured before electricity which I inherited from my grandfather buried somewhere in the garage (the micrometer, not my grandfather), I don’t have a digital unit. I used the next best thing: The new 40’ industrial tape measure I just bought to replace the tape measure I lost (but then found a week later). This, of course, was only slightly less accurate than a digital micrometer, but I figured I could make up for the inaccuracy by just drilling a bigger hole.
In assessing where the hole would need to be drilled, I found the location was on the backside of the metal housing. Pretty much the most inconvenient place for me to have to drill.
In order to mark where the hole was supposed to go, I used my precision giant tape measure to determine the correct distance, then I used painters tape to circumnavigate the column. I reasoned the distance from the face of the ignition switch to the edge of the tape would be the same all the way around, so all I’d have to do it make sure the drill bit was lined up with the edge of the tape on the far side of the assembly 180 degrees from the little mark so I could drill the whole from the back where I couldn’t really see anything.
What could go wrong?
Amazingly, and very un-Pandora-like, I managed to get the hole drilled in exactly the right place. I pushed an awl into the hole, used a screwdriver to pry the tumbler partway out, then employed vise grips to grab it and wiggle it the rest of the way.
This was going way better than I thought it would!
I examined the tumbler and decided to disassemble it to see if I could find anything obvious which might be the cause of the problem. The first thing I noticed is that in all my key-wiggling frenzies trying to get it to work, the tip of the key had broken off and was wedged at the bottom of the tumbler.
After some tapping, pushing, and pulling the little spring-loaded tabs in the tumbler I managed to get the piece of key removed. That, however, wasn’t the actual problem, just a result of the problem, because when I used my extra key, it still got jammed up and wouldn’t work.
Even with Houdini’s help, the little brass pieces which are supposed to move in and out in conjunction with the key being inserted, wouldn’t cooperate. I think they were just plum worn out.
I could either take the assembly to a locksmith and see if he or she could repair it, or I could use the Primitive Pete method. Guess which one I chose?
I simply removed all the brass pieces so the key would easily slide into the tumbler and rotate the assembly. It worked great! Of course, it also meant any variety of keys could be used to start the car. In fact, my extra V-Max key works great!
The multi-key method may not be the most secure, but it’s not a big problem and even has some advantages. For example:
1. Most young car thieves have no idea how to drive a manual 5-speed, and most of the old car thieves who do are now too old to get in and out of a Pantera.
2.
I can always replace the 12-volt lockout switch by the battery, which quit working, with a new one which has it’s own key.
3. The key which unlocks the doors still needs to be used to get into the car.
4. I won’t have to worry about the tumbler messing up again.
5. If I lose my ignition key I can now use any number of other things to start my car!
I reassembled everything with no problem, and now the ignition switch starts the car easier than ever!
If the next owner wants to restore the ignition tumbler back to stock, that will be easy since I saved the little brass things in a diminutive zip-lock bag. The tough part will be finding said bag amongst the piles of other used Pantera parts which seems to grow larger by the day.
________________________________
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 1:35 PM
To: chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com>
Cc: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>; De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Yes when the tumbler isn’t flush it won’t allow the key to fully enter.
Maybe some debris in there? Or something broke off.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 20, 2024, at 09:58, chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com> wrote:
Nothing is broken as far as the key is concerned. The key goes in about half way then abruptly stops because it is hitting something solid inside the Tumbler that won't allow the key to go in all the way. I can pull it in and out half way quite easily, but as far as turning it, no way! Also I did try repeatedly with the paper clip to pull the cylinder out but it's as if it's glued in place permanently.
I'll try a few more times over the next few days, but I have a feeling it's going to be Tumbler extraction time for me pretty soon!
Sincerely,
Chris
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 4/19/24 10:47 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Chris,
Ooh. I’ve never heard of that. Normally it just pops out with minimal effort.
Try maximal effort?
Did the end of the key break off in the lock?
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 19, 2024, at 21:57, Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:
I tried that, the tumbler won't budge, and the paper clip just bends straight again, even using a BIG paper clip for extra pulling power.
Sincerely,
Chris
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2024 9:05 PM
To: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
> Sigh.
>
> This is EXACTLY the problem I have repeatedly described.
>
> You need to pull the key out, then put the tumbler out with a paper clip, then insert the key and it should work.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>>> On Apr 19, 2024, at 19:56, chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
>> Date: 4/19/24 6:01 PM (GMT-08:00)
>> To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
>> Cc: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>, Pantera Owners Club of America <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] tumbler
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Send us pics please….
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Apr 19, 2024, at 17:41, Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Larry Finch was kind enough to walk me through the paper clip trick,
>> > unfortunately, it was to no Avail!
>> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
>> > smartphone
>> > -------- Original message --------
>> > From: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
>> > Date: 4/19/24 5:23 PM (GMT-08:00)
>> > To: 'Christopher Kimball' <chrisvkimball at msn.com>, 'Pantera Owners Club
>> > of America' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> > Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] tumbler
>> >
>> > Dear Chris,
>> > ......or is this a case for Mike Drew's Magical Paper Clip
>> > Ignition Trick????
>> > Calling Mike. Come in Mike.
>> > Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: DeTomaso [[1]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
>> > Behalf
>> > Of Christopher Kimball
>> > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2024 7:05 PM
>> > To: Pantera Owners Club of America
>> > Subject: [DeTomaso] tumbler
>> > Hi folks,
>> > Recently I remember a post about ignition tumblers, and that they were
>> > difficult to find.
>> > "Ha!" I thought, "At least I don't have that problem with my car!"
>> > Oops. Today my key decided to only go into the ignition switch
>> > halfway. It
>> > will not go in any further, even after squirting half a can of Houdini
>> > in
>> > it. I was fortunate that I could wiggle the key around enough to get
>> > it to
>> > work so I could get home this afternoon, but once home, I could jiggle
>> > myself to death and that key will not go in.
>> > I talked to a couple of vendors, and neither has any for sale, and
>> > apparently, they are no longer made.
>> > Before I bypass the ignition switch entirely and mount a giant light
>> > switch
>> > on my dash to start the car, does anyone have one they would be willing
>> > to
>> > sell to me, or know where I might find one?
>> > Thanks for your help!
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > References
>> >
>> > 1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> > DeTomaso mailing list
>> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso<http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso><http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso%3Chttp://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso%3E>
>> >
>> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>> >
>> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> <20240419_143206.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
__________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2024 5:58 AM
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>; Mike Drew
<mikeldrew at aol.com>; chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com>
Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Chris, thank you for an edition of "Captain My Captain" this morning.
It could have only been better by being hampered somehow by some of the
Seven Deadly Sins. Good luck and sweet driving. BILL Lewis
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 11:26 PM
To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>; chrisvkimball
<chrisvkimball at gmail.com>
Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Hi Mike (and forum readers),
I spent the last several hours disassembling the entire ignition switch
mechanism, and for those who are interested, here is, in excruciating
detail, what happened:
I have said many times I'm not much of a mechanic, but I can follow
directions fairly well. Larry Finch was kind enough to send me some
pictures of how to remove the tumbler, so in another act of purest
optimism, I grabbed my flashlight, a few screwdrivers, and my socket
set and climbed under the dash.
First I had to partially remove the plate holding one of the 6x9, 3-way
speakers I mounted under the dash. (I must say, that plate was very
well constructed. It was fabricated by Finn's Auto Restoration, and
replaced a rather lame one I had installed made out of thin plywood).
Once that was out of the way I used a hex wrench to remove two bolts
under the steering column, followed by the two large bolts located just
behind the hex bolts. At that point the entire steering column lowered
so I could take out the two screws on each side of the plastic housing
surrounding the turn-signal stalk and ignition keyhole.
So far, so good.
The next step was to remove two flat-head screws to take off the
electrical cylinder which is the actual ignition switch. Just for fun
I used a screwdriver to turn it, and the car started right up. That
was good, since I figured if all else failed I could just mount that to
the dashboard and attached a large screwdriver to my keyring.
I covered the exposed terminals on the ignition switch with tape so I
wouldn't end up causing a Pantera-destroying fire (not to mention my
garage and house) and surveyed the landscape.
The tumbler is mounted in a metal structure which seemed to be attached
with some sort of press-fit shafts designed to never be removed. That
was OK, though, since Larry Finch's pictures also showed how to remove
the tumbler from the steering column.
You see, when the clever Italians assembled this part of the car, they
had so much faith and confidence the tumbler would never break, they
installed it with a spring clip located inside the bomb-proof
housing--totally inaccessible to mere mortals. Not only that, they
didn't mount the spring clip longitudinally, so slight pressure would
release the tumbler, oh no, they mounted it sideways so there is no way
to get it to release and free the tumbler.
But here is where it is a great thing to have the combined brainpower
of all the Pantera owners out there. Larry showed me via his pictures
how one can drill a hole directly above where the spring clip resides,
enabling the spring clip to be depressed by a thin awl, thereby
releasing the tumbler.
The picture provided by Larry showed a digital micrometer measuring
.628 of an inch from the face of the tumbler to the place where the
spring clip access hole would need to be drilled. It was 180 degrees
from a small mark on the chrome face of the ignition tumbler where the
key inserts.
Although I may have some kind of micrometer manufactured before
electricity which I inherited from my grandfather buried somewhere in
the garage (the micrometer, not my grandfather), I don't have a digital
unit. I used the next best thing: The new 40' industrial tape measure
I just bought to replace the tape measure I lost (but then found a week
later). This, of course, was only slightly less accurate than a
digital micrometer, but I figured I could make up for the inaccuracy by
just drilling a bigger hole.
In assessing where the hole would need to be drilled, I found the
location was on the backside of the metal housing. Pretty much the
most inconvenient place for me to have to drill.
In order to mark where the hole was supposed to go, I used my precision
giant tape measure to determine the correct distance, then I used
painters tape to circumnavigate the column. I reasoned the distance
from the face of the ignition switch to the edge of the tape would be
the same all the way around, so all I'd have to do it make sure the
drill bit was lined up with the edge of the tape on the far side of the
assembly 180 degrees from the little mark so I could drill the whole
from the back where I couldn't really see anything.
What could go wrong?
Amazingly, and very un-Pandora-like, I managed to get the hole drilled
in exactly the right place. I pushed an awl into the hole, used a
screwdriver to pry the tumbler partway out, then employed vise grips to
grab it and wiggle it the rest of the way.
This was going way better than I thought it would!
I examined the tumbler and decided to disassemble it to see if I could
find anything obvious which might be the cause of the problem. The
first thing I noticed is that in all my key-wiggling frenzies trying to
get it to work, the tip of the key had broken off and was wedged at the
bottom of the tumbler.
After some tapping, pushing, and pulling the little spring-loaded tabs
in the tumbler I managed to get the piece of key removed. That,
however, wasn't the actual problem, just a result of the problem,
because when I used my extra key, it still got jammed up and wouldn't
work.
Even with Houdini's help, the little brass pieces which are supposed to
move in and out in conjunction with the key being inserted, wouldn't
cooperate. I think they were just plum worn out.
I could either take the assembly to a locksmith and see if he or she
could repair it, or I could use the Primitive Pete method. Guess which
one I chose?
I simply removed all the brass pieces so the key would easily slide
into the tumbler and rotate the assembly. It worked great! Of course,
it also meant any variety of keys could be used to start the car. In
fact, my extra V-Max key works great!
The multi-key method may not be the most secure, but it's not a big
problem and even has some advantages. For example:
1. Most young car thieves have no idea how to drive a manual
5-speed, and most of the old car thieves who do are now too old to get
in and out of a Pantera.
2.
I can always replace the 12-volt lockout switch by the battery, which
quit working, with a new one which has it's own key.
3. The key which unlocks the doors still needs to be used to get
into the car.
4. I won't have to worry about the tumbler messing up again.
5. If I lose my ignition key I can now use any number of other
things to start my car!
I reassembled everything with no problem, and now the ignition switch
starts the car easier than ever!
If the next owner wants to restore the ignition tumbler back to stock,
that will be easy since I saved the little brass things in a diminutive
zip-lock bag. The tough part will be finding said bag amongst the
piles of other used Pantera parts which seems to grow larger by the
day.
________________________________
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 1:35 PM
To: chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com>
Cc: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>; De Tomaso Forum
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Yes when the tumbler isn't flush it won't allow the key to fully enter.
Maybe some debris in there? Or something broke off.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 20, 2024, at 09:58, chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com>
wrote:
Nothing is broken as far as the key is concerned. The key goes in about
half way then abruptly stops because it is hitting something solid
inside the Tumbler that won't allow the key to go in all the way. I can
pull it in and out half way quite easily, but as far as turning it, no
way! Also I did try repeatedly with the paper clip to pull the cylinder
out but it's as if it's glued in place permanently.
I'll try a few more times over the next few days, but I have a feeling
it's going to be Tumbler extraction time for me pretty soon!
Sincerely,
Chris
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 4/19/24 10:47 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
Chris,
Ooh. I've never heard of that. Normally it just pops out with minimal
effort.
Try maximal effort?
Did the end of the key break off in the lock?
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 19, 2024, at 21:57, Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
wrote:
I tried that, the tumbler won't budge, and the paper clip just bends
straight again, even using a BIG paper clip for extra pulling power.
Sincerely,
Chris
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2024 9:05 PM
To: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Fwd: tumbler
> Sigh.
>
> This is EXACTLY the problem I have repeatedly described.
>
> You need to pull the key out, then put the tumbler out with a paper
clip, then insert the key and it should work.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>>> On Apr 19, 2024, at 19:56, chrisvkimball <chrisvkimball at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
>> Date: 4/19/24 6:01 PM (GMT-08:00)
>> To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
>> Cc: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>, Pantera Owners Club of America
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] tumbler
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Send us pics please....
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Apr 19, 2024, at 17:41, Christopher Kimball
<chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Larry Finch was kind enough to walk me through the paper clip
trick,
>> > unfortunately, it was to no Avail!
>> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
>> > smartphone
>> > -------- Original message --------
>> > From: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
>> > Date: 4/19/24 5:23 PM (GMT-08:00)
>> > To: 'Christopher Kimball' <chrisvkimball at msn.com>, 'Pantera
Owners Club
>> > of America' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> > Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] tumbler
>> >
>> > Dear Chris,
>> > ......or is this a case for Mike Drew's Magical
Paper Clip
>> > Ignition Trick????
>> > Calling Mike. Come in Mike.
>> > Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: DeTomaso
[[1]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
>> > Behalf
>> > Of Christopher Kimball
>> > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2024 7:05 PM
>> > To: Pantera Owners Club of America
>> > Subject: [DeTomaso] tumbler
>> > Hi folks,
>> > Recently I remember a post about ignition tumblers, and that
they were
>> > difficult to find.
>> > "Ha!" I thought, "At least I don't have that problem with my
car!"
>> > Oops. Today my key decided to only go into the ignition switch
>> > halfway. It
>> > will not go in any further, even after squirting half a can of
Houdini
>> > in
>> > it. I was fortunate that I could wiggle the key around enough
to get
>> > it to
>> > work so I could get home this afternoon, but once home, I could
jiggle
>> > myself to death and that key will not go in.
>> > I talked to a couple of vendors, and neither has any for sale,
and
>> > apparently, they are no longer made.
>> > Before I bypass the ignition switch entirely and mount a giant
light
>> > switch
>> > on my dash to start the car, does anyone have one they would be
willing
>> > to
>> > sell to me, or know where I might find one?
>> > Thanks for your help!
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > References
>> >
>> > 1. [1]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> > DeTomaso mailing list
>> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> >
[2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso<http://serv
er.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
>> >
>> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>> >
>> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> <20240419_143206.jpg>
References
1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso%3Chttp://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso%3E
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