[DeTomaso] Help!-Car stumbles, power loss---occasionally!
Will Kooiman
will.kooiman at gmail.com
Thu May 11 16:25:54 EDT 2023
My fix was real simple, once I figured out I had a fuel issue.
I plumbed a 90-degree pipe/AN fitting to the bottom of the tank. Others have pooh-poohed this citing, “you’ll poke your eye out” wait…, that was The Christmas Story. It was more like, “it’s dangerous – you could catch something on the road, and rip the bottom of your tank out – or something like that.” If you saw it, you’d say otherwise. The 90-deg fitting puts the fuel line very close to the bottom of the tank – which rests on top of the frame rails, so the fuel line is 2-3” higher than the lowest part of the car. If I were really worried, I could make a small sheet metal plate to cover the area, but it really isn’t bad.
If I had my engine out, I’d go with a full stainless tank, and probably with an internal electric fuel pump, but I don’t plan on removing my engine anytime soon.
I use a very large screen fuel filter before the fuel pump that I clean out every 3-4 years. When I do, I can dump about a ¼ shot glass of rust dust from the filter.
From: MIKE DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:24 PM
To: Michael Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
Cc: "will.kooiman at gmail.com" <will.kooiman at gmail.com>, <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Help!-Car stumbles, power loss---occasionally!
All,
Lots of good fuel related advice already related here. I’m on my third tank so have suffered several of the aforementioned maladies. When the fuel pickup rusts, the car runs perfectly until the fuel level drops to the point where it’s sucking air, then it starts drawing a mix of fuel and air and runs badly. At some point it won’t run at all. That doesn’t seem to be the issue here. (I fitted a ‘new’ reconditioned gas tank that turned out to have rust holes halfway down the pickup so it would only run when the tank was more than half full, and a new L-model fuel level sender with integral fuel pickup fixed it). That’s the tank I’m using now which is otherwise perfect.
My first tank was very rusty and leaky so I replaced it with one that had come from somebody else’s project car. Before I bought it, some fool put a piece of an old bedspread into the top of my tank while it was out of the car to prevent debris from falling in, and the bedspread itself fell in! When I bought the tank it wasn’t really visible so it was installed in the car and actually worked for several years before the fuel started disintegrating the bedspread which would then clog the banjo fitting. It took a very long time before I finally discovered the cause. In the meantime I had installed a monster fuel filter which turned out to be unnecessary once the bedding was removed from the tank!
While discovering the bedding, I also found a ton of other debris in the tank. I built a super duper fuel tank vacuum cleaning device using an old electric fuel pump (which eventually crapped out so now it’s a new pump). It uses the same principle as a pool sweep, and draws fuel through a filter, then through the pump, then returns it to the tank. I loan it out as needed and one guy went through something like seven (!) filters before it was fully clean.
Both my Pantera and Lori’s experienced stumbles at idle which were difficult to diagnose. Mine was caused by spark jump between the wires at the distributor cap and the engine screen. The car ran perfectly with the screen removed. Eventually I lined the underside of the screen with rubber which fixed it. Later I switched to a different motor and air cleaner, and then the spark jumped to the underside of the cleaner:
Pantera ignition miss diagnosisyoutu.be
The car ran perfectly but wouldn’t idle. Fitting a different base that was 1/4 inch taller fixed it.
Lori’s was similar but even weirder because the spark was jumping from the coil to a RUBBER water hose!?
Coil wire sparking to a rubber heater hose!youtu.be
In all three cases the cars ran perfectly once above about 1500 rpm but had a stumble/miss at lower rpm.
Rosanne Rosannadanna said it best:
It's Always Somethingyoutu.be
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On May 11, 2023, at 11:19, Michael Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com> wrote:
cliff,
I had a similar problem as described by Will K. Mine turned out to be
silicon chunks in my fuel tank. They were getting sucked up through the
pickup in the tank, but then they were getting jammed in the banjo
fitting on top of the tank (which is where the carb-feed fuel line
hooks up. It would randomly cause the engine to stutter or stall.A I
ended up having to clear the banjo fitting several times before the
problem went away entirely. Itas very easy to remove and Inspect it.
Mike Becker
On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 10:32 AM Will Kooiman
<[1]will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
Possible fuel starvation due to a plugged fuel filter or fuel sock
in the tank.A Been there, done that.
Our gas tanks rust from the inside.A The rust plugs filters.A The
symptom is power loss during acceleration.A It could also increase
temps and idle speed, due to leaning out the mix.
Same thing for the fuel sock.A Mine was sucked into the tube.A It
flowed just enough gasoline to barely run, but whenever you needed
gas (i.e. acceleration), it stumbled, stalled, etc.A If I let it
sit a while, it would run okay again.
See if you can hook up a fuel pressure gauge right before the
carburetor.A It should be 5-7psi.
i>>?On 5/11/23, 8:48 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of The Goyaniuks via
DeTomaso" <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
<mailto:[3]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<mailto:[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>> wrote:
Your symptoms sound familiar.
Sounds like it may be a vacuum leak.
One thought, and only one suggestion, may or not be:
After checking for vacuum leak at all the normal places - and if you
do
not find the leak then:
If your set-up includes a vacuum line running from the intake
manifold
to the brake booster...
An insidious vacuum leak may occur at the brake booster.
There is a rubber seal that seals around the brake master cylinder
shaft. The shaft acts as a plunger between the brake master and the
brake booster. The seal itself is meant to seal the brake booster
vacuum.
Once can see the seal when you take the brake master cylinder out.
I had an original seal there. In time (40 years) it leaked vacuum
and
caused stumbling, power loss on acceleration etc.
Replaced the seal and the vacuum leak was cured.
Once again my suggestion is to check for a vacuum leak in the normal
and not so normal places.
HTH (Hope This Helps)
Bohdan Goyaniuk
On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 07:27:38 a.m. EDT, Panteratime via
DeTomaso <[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<mailto:[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>> wrote:
Folks,
The vehicle:
1972 stock Pantera with Demon carb, Blaster ignition coil
Rarely driven car -maybe 1000 miles a year
The Owner:
(Average mechanic skills, I did install intake manifold, stainless
brake lines, Fluidyne aluminum radiator , plugs, Demon carb, etc
when
I
bought car over 20 years ago)
I never touched a distributor!
The scenerio:
Took a really nice ride out east of Long Island to wineries with
club
last Saturday. Full full tank of gas, oil level fine, car ran well.
All of a sudden on acceleration from a stop light the car stumbles
a
bit, loss of power, then rides great after it gets past a certain
point. Car runs fine at speed, stumbled occasionally a few more
times
on acceleration as trip went on. I also noticed a higher idle than
normal. (Temp a bit higher than normal as well, thought maybe cause
idle was too high) (One time I had dieseling after shut off). The
guys asked how long since I changed my points and I said I never
did.
They recommended removing the bulkhead and checking the timing and
looking at the points and possible stuck float bulb in carb. (I'll
change my belts when bulkhead is off as well)
Then the conversation went to changing to electronic ignition, set
em
n
forget em.
The Ask:
* Any other suggestions on what issue may be?
* Thoughts on electronic ignition and/or what brand electronic
ignition you all recommend
* Any thing to look at with carb?
Thank you in advance!
Cliff NY
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-------------- next part --------------
My fix was real simple, once I figured out I had a fuel issue.
I plumbed a 90-degree pipe/AN fitting to the bottom of the tank.
Others have pooh-poohed this citing, "you'll poke your eye out"
wait..., that was The Christmas Story. It was more like, "it's
dangerous - you could catch something on the road, and rip the bottom
of your tank out - or something like that." If you saw it, you'd say
otherwise. The 90-deg fitting puts the fuel line very close to the
bottom of the tank - which rests on top of the frame rails, so the fuel
line is 2-3" higher than the lowest part of the car. If I were really
worried, I could make a small sheet metal plate to cover the area, but
it really isn't bad.
If I had my engine out, I'd go with a full stainless tank, and probably
with an internal electric fuel pump, but I don't plan on removing my
engine anytime soon.
I use a very large screen fuel filter before the fuel pump that I clean
out every 3-4 years. When I do, I can dump about a 1/4 shot glass of
rust dust from the filter.
From: MIKE DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:24 PM
To: Michael Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
Cc: "will.kooiman at gmail.com" <will.kooiman at gmail.com>,
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Help!-Car stumbles, power loss---occasionally!
All,
Lots of good fuel related advice already related here. I'm on my third
tank so have suffered several of the aforementioned maladies. When the
fuel pickup rusts, the car runs perfectly until the fuel level drops to
the point where it's sucking air, then it starts drawing a mix of fuel
and air and runs badly. At some point it won't run at all. That doesn't
seem to be the issue here. (I fitted a `new' reconditioned gas tank
that turned out to have rust holes halfway down the pickup so it would
only run when the tank was more than half full, and a new L-model fuel
level sender with integral fuel pickup fixed it). That's the tank I'm
using now which is otherwise perfect.
My first tank was very rusty and leaky so I replaced it with one that
had come from somebody else's project car. Before I bought it, some
fool put a piece of an old bedspread into the top of my tank while it
was out of the car to prevent debris from falling in, and the bedspread
itself fell in! When I bought the tank it wasn't really visible so it
was installed in the car and actually worked for several years before
the fuel started disintegrating the bedspread which would then clog the
banjo fitting. It took a very long time before I finally discovered the
cause. In the meantime I had installed a monster fuel filter which
turned out to be unnecessary once the bedding was removed from the
tank!
While discovering the bedding, I also found a ton of other debris in
the tank. I built a super duper fuel tank vacuum cleaning device using
an old electric fuel pump (which eventually crapped out so now it's a
new pump). It uses the same principle as a pool sweep, and draws fuel
through a filter, then through the pump, then returns it to the tank. I
loan it out as needed and one guy went through something like seven (!)
filters before it was fully clean.
Both my Pantera and Lori's experienced stumbles at idle which were
difficult to diagnose. Mine was caused by spark jump between the wires
at the distributor cap and the engine screen. The car ran perfectly
with the screen removed. Eventually I lined the underside of the screen
with rubber which fixed it. Later I switched to a different motor and
air cleaner, and then the spark jumped to the underside of the cleaner:
[cid:image001.jpg at 01D98425.427858E0]
[1]Pantera ignition miss diagnosis
[2]youtu.be
The car ran perfectly but wouldn't idle. Fitting a different base that
was 1/4 inch taller fixed it.
Lori's was similar but even weirder because the spark was jumping from
the coil to a RUBBER water hose!?
[cid:image002.jpg at 01D98425.427858E0]
[3]Coil wire sparking to a rubber heater hose!
[4]youtu.be
In all three cases the cars ran perfectly once above about 1500 rpm but
had a stumble/miss at lower rpm.
Rosanne Rosannadanna said it best:
[cid:image003.jpg at 01D98425.427858E0]
[5]It's Always Something
[6]youtu.be
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On May 11, 2023, at 11:19, Michael Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
wrote:
cliff,
I had a similar problem as described by Will K. Mine turned out to be
silicon chunks in my fuel tank. They were getting sucked up through
the
pickup in the tank, but then they were getting jammed in the banjo
fitting on top of the tank (which is where the carb-feed fuel line
hooks up. It would randomly cause the engine to stutter or stall.A I
ended up having to clear the banjo fitting several times before the
problem went away entirely. Itas very easy to remove and Inspect it.
Mike Becker
On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 10:32 AM Will Kooiman
<[1]will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
Possible fuel starvation due to a plugged fuel filter or fuel sock
in the tank.A Been there, done that.
Our gas tanks rust from the inside.A The rust plugs filters.A The
symptom is power loss during acceleration.A It could also increase
temps and idle speed, due to leaning out the mix.
Same thing for the fuel sock.A Mine was sucked into the tube.A It
flowed just enough gasoline to barely run, but whenever you needed
gas (i.e. acceleration), it stumbled, stalled, etc.A If I let it
sit a while, it would run okay again.
See if you can hook up a fuel pressure gauge right before the
carburetor.A It should be 5-7psi.
i>>?On 5/11/23, 8:48 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of The Goyaniuks via
DeTomaso" <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
<mailto:[3]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<mailto:[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>> wrote:
Your symptoms sound familiar.
Sounds like it may be a vacuum leak.
One thought, and only one suggestion, may or not be:
After checking for vacuum leak at all the normal places - and if
you
do
not find the leak then:
If your set-up includes a vacuum line running from the intake
manifold
to the brake booster...
An insidious vacuum leak may occur at the brake booster.
There is a rubber seal that seals around the brake master cylinder
shaft. The shaft acts as a plunger between the brake master and the
brake booster. The seal itself is meant to seal the brake booster
vacuum.
Once can see the seal when you take the brake master cylinder out.
I had an original seal there. In time (40 years) it leaked vacuum
and
caused stumbling, power loss on acceleration etc.
Replaced the seal and the vacuum leak was cured.
Once again my suggestion is to check for a vacuum leak in the
normal
and not so normal places.
HTH (Hope This Helps)
Bohdan Goyaniuk
On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 07:27:38 a.m. EDT, Panteratime via
DeTomaso <[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<mailto:[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>> wrote:
Folks,
The vehicle:
1972 stock Pantera with Demon carb, Blaster ignition coil
Rarely driven car -maybe 1000 miles a year
The Owner:
(Average mechanic skills, I did install intake manifold, stainless
brake lines, Fluidyne aluminum radiator , plugs, Demon carb, etc
when
I
bought car over 20 years ago)
I never touched a distributor!
The scenerio:
Took a really nice ride out east of Long Island to wineries with
club
last Saturday. Full full tank of gas, oil level fine, car ran well.
All of a sudden on acceleration from a stop light the car stumbles
a
bit, loss of power, then rides great after it gets past a certain
point. Car runs fine at speed, stumbled occasionally a few more
times
on acceleration as trip went on. I also noticed a higher idle than
normal. (Temp a bit higher than normal as well, thought maybe cause
idle was too high) (One time I had dieseling after shut off). The
guys asked how long since I changed my points and I said I never
did.
They recommended removing the bulkhead and checking the timing and
looking at the points and possible stuck float bulb in carb. (I'll
change my belts when bulkhead is off as well)
Then the conversation went to changing to electronic ignition, set
em
n
forget em.
The Ask:
* Any other suggestions on what issue may be?
* Thoughts on electronic ignition and/or what brand electronic
ignition you all recommend
* Any thing to look at with carb?
Thank you in advance!
Cliff NY
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