[DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers
Charles Engles
cengles at cox.net
Sun Jul 30 15:29:35 EDT 2023
Dear Mike,
Hmmm. Back out to the Institute......
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew [mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 2:21 PM
To: Charles Engles
Cc: Asa Jay Laughton; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers
Chuck,
Thanks for the photos. That looks for all the world like operator error.
You have the header flange cinched up tight against the head with the other, outside fasteners. Then the flanged bolts won’t go in because the pipe is angled as it exits the header flange and interferes with the bolts. If you back the other fasteners off, you will be able to push the offending bolts through the flange holes at an angle, then straighten them to enter the threaded holes in the head. You tighten all those bolts first, then later come back and attend to the more readily accessible fasteners.
I’ve always had to do that on my headers in my GT350. It’s a standard Windsor practice.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Jul 30, 2023, at 08:40, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Techno Fans of Fasteners,
>
> The pictures as promised. The 5/16" socket head bolts did work in a hole or two on each side, but interference persists.
>
> 792 shows the overview of the header and flange and fasteners. Note how pinched the primaries are at the header flange junction and the further compromise of access with the primary tube angulation.
>
> 796 --823 show the interference with the 3/8" socket head and flange at various sites.
>
> 824 shows the newly acquired 5/16" socket head bolt flange also interfering with hole access.
>
> I have a consult next week with my exhaust modification expert's opinion.
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Asa Jay Laughton [mailto:asajay at asajay.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 5:06 PM
> To: Charles Engles
> Cc: Mike Drew; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers
>
> Hi Chuck,
> For a guy who takes pictures voraciously, I’m kinda surprised we don’t have a photo of the offending condition. Just sayin’ 😉
>
> Though I’m sure most of us can picture it in our heads. I had, at one point on an earlier engine build in my first Mustang, one bolt that was the first one in and the last one out. Because there was no room to unscrew it more than about two threads before it hit the pipe. I could get the bolt through from an angle when the header was off, but not if it was flat to the head. That might be hard to picture but it was a pain in the arse. And that was using the smaller head header bolts.
>
> I got rid of those cheap-azz headers the next time I had to take them off.
>
> Asa Jay
>
> Sent via radio waves
>
>> On Jul 21, 2023, at 14:29, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Mike,
>>
>> Alas, it is not as simple as sloppy welding. If it was, then I would have made short work of it with my trusty die grinder and carbide bits. It seems to be a flawed design of the primary header/flange/exhaust bolt hole arrangement. Conversely, the interference is from the proximity of the header primary tube to the header flange bolt hole rather than a clunky weld.
>>
>> I do understand that it is possible to make the socket head too small with a result of a multitude of metal maladies.
>>
>> Plan B is the ARP 5/16ths inch headed bolts plus grinding the bolt head flange.
>>
>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mike Drew [mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com]
>> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 4:16 PM
>> To: Charles Engles
>> Cc: Larry Stock; Daniel C Jones; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers
>>
>> Larry,
>>
>> Poor man’s technique:
>>
>> Chuck the threaded portion of the bolt in a drill. Run it the opposite direction to your bench grinder, and grind away. The drill will ensure the head is reduced uniformly.
>>
>> If you go too far, then when you over tighten (or try to remove) the bolt, the head will split apart and then you are really ‘screwed’.
>>
>> I would look more carefully at the headers to see where excess weld material can be removed to give adequate flange clearance, then use the ARP small-head bolts.
>>
>> Come to think of it, you could use the drill/grinder technique to shrink the diameter of the flange on the small-head bolts which would not otherwise compromise them.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On Jul 21, 2023, at 16:53, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Larry,
>>>
>>> That is exactly what my local machinist described to me when I asked about "making the heads smaller". My small knowledge that the bolts were likely pretty darn hard suggested to me that machining or cutting them down might be a challenge. So, grinding it is.
>>>
>>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Larry Stock [mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 3:47 PM
>>> To: Charles Engles; 'Daniel C Jones'
>>> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers
>>>
>>> Except Socket head Bolts are hardened, you don't machine them, you grind them.
>>>
>>> On 7/21/23, 1:41 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Charles Engles" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of cengles at cox.net <mailto:cengles at cox.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Dan, Mike, Will and Jack,
>>>
>>>
>>> The Allen head socket cap bolts are a consideration. Using a socket with an attached allen wrench with a ball head seems like it would work except the head diameter of the socket head is 9/16ths which is too big for all the problematic exhaust bolt/flange holes.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan confirmed my thinking that a machine shop could make the heads smaller. There is a shop nearby and I will buy a handful of allen head socket cap bolts and have them made smaller. I'll then test the concept. If it is good then I'll complete the set of sixteen.
>>>
>>>
>>> It could work.
>>>
>>>
>>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>] On Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
>>> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 10:09 AM
>>> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck,
>>>
>>>
>>> Have you tried Allen head cap screws?:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.aftfasteners.com/cylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws/ <https://www.aftfasteners.com/cylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws/>
>>>
>>>
>>> They don't have shoulders and you can turn the OD down if needed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan Jones
>>>
>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 9:52 AM Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net <mailto:cengles at cox.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mike and Larry,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good news: you're right. ARP does make those 5/16ths
>>>> inch wrench-size bolts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bad news: the bolt head flange is still, according to
>>>> ARP tech, 1/2" diameter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good news: it is better than the current bolts.
>>>> Progress
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Chuck Engles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Mike Drew [mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com <mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com>]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 8:41 PM
>>>> To: Charles Engles
>>>> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
>>>> headers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chuck,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You don't have a header problem. You have a header BOLT problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wise people will heave their standard header boots over a hedge and
>>>> replace them with ARP bolts which have a 3/8 inch shank but use a
>>>> smaller 5/16 wrench. This makes a massive difference.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> arp-100-1110_xl.jpg
>>>>
>>>> [1]ARP 100-1110 ARP Chromoly Header Bolt Kits
>>>>
>>>> [2]summitracing.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, the Windsor headers are constructed such that if you
>>>> are incautious with installation, and cinch down certain bolts before
>>>> having inserted other bolts, you then can't get the remaining bolts
>>>> started. As a general rule, you feed the bolts through the holes on the
>>>> inside of the pipe bends first. Get all those bolts started in the
>>>> threads, then tighten them down (loosely).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then install the bolts on the outside of the bends, tighten them down
>>>> loosely. Tighten the inside bolts fully then the outside ones.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Having studs and nuts on two holes on each side is a good idea. They
>>>> need to be outside-the-bend holes as the nuts are, if memory serves,
>>>> 7/16 or maybe even 1/2.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 20, 2023, at 20:55, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net <mailto:cengles at cox.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Forum,
>>>> All of my Pantera experience has been with Clevelands.
>>>> Currently, I am working on my brother's Pantera with a 427 Windsor
>>>> stroker in it. I have just removed the headers and observed that
>>>> while
>>>> the access to the exhaust bolts was not bad, the problem was very
>>>> little clearance between the proximal primary tube and the hex bolt
>>>> head.
>>>> Several of the bolts required slow, tedious removal with
>>>> approximately 1/6 to 1/12^th of a turn needed to remove it.
>>>> I had an appropriately sized socket head bolt and it had
>>>> the same interference issues as the hex bolt.
>>>> I tried an exhaust stud, but.....the twelve point small
>>>> 7/16^th inch nuts had the same fitment issues.
>>>> The headers are from P.I. M.
>>>> Can Windsor powered Pantera owners tell me if this is
>>>> inherent with Windsor engines and Pantera headers or are there better
>>>> headers out there?
>>>> Curious, Chuck Englesl
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>>>> References
>>>>
>>>> 1. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110 <https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110>
>>>> 2. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110 <https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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