[DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers
Asa Jay Laughton
asajay at asajay.com
Sun Jul 23 12:05:30 EDT 2023
I was just in the neighborhood a few weeks ago on a family vacation to Shelley’s sister and her husband just outside of Witchita. We took a day trip to some zoo just outside Oklahoma City.
I hadn’t thought of it at the time, but I should have stopped in to the Pantera Research Institute while I was close.
;)
Asa Jay
Sent via radio waves
> On Jul 23, 2023, at 06:12, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> That is why there will be another chapter...
>
>
> With the usual Chuck Engles pics, right?
>
>
> We're living vicariously through you. 😉
>
>
> From: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
> Date: Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 1:20 PM
> To: 'Julian Kift' <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, 'Bill Moore'
> <billmoore6480 at gmail.com>, 'Daniel C Jones'
> <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>, <gsedwards at cox.net>, 'David'
> <david at msmcontractors.org>, "will.kooiman at gmail.com"
> <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
> Cc: <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, 'Mike Drew' <mikeldrew at aol.com>
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
> headers
>
>
> Dear Julian,
>
>
> See below:
>
>
> 1. A Windsor, because no one ever managed to get a Cleveland to
> produce a reliable 525HP.........$$$$ I am very well aware of that
> fact.
>
>
> 2. Pulling the engine to address a header bolt sounds akin to
> performing a lobotomy to address a headache....$$$$ All of this
> based on the fact that the Windsor engine died and must be pulled
> for teardown, a little forensic analysis of the failure mode and
> re-building. The issue of the Windsor header fasteners is a
> side-show for the main act.
>
>
>
> I prefer studs personally; it is then easier to use a cut or shaped
> washer spacer behind the nut to stand it off and provide greater
> access.
>
> $$$$ I use exhaust studs on my Clevelands and agree with your
> preference. Based on that, I did try the exhaust stud and the 7/16"
> inch 12 point nut with the header in place and found that the nut
> flange ( measured at 1/2 inch dia) also suffered interference with the
> nearby primary header tube. I was so hopeful that the studs would be
> the answer.
>
>
>
> Will: You wrote----
>
>
> I've used allen bolts with a ball end to get the bolts
> close. It's hard to get enough torque with a ball end allen. But you
> can then use an open end wrench to get it tight. $$$$ That is a good
> point. I think that using the Remflex exhaust gaskets requires less
> torque than conventional gaskets.
>
>
> It helps to keep the header loose while you do the difficult bolts. Do
> the easy bolts last.
>
> $$$$ Another good point
>
>
> You can practice on a spare set of heads that are not in the car. If
> you can't get them installed outside the car, it'll be murder with the
> engine installed.
>
> $$$$ I agree. That is why there will be another chapter with the
> engine, headers and a variety of bolts, once it is on the engine stand.
>
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Julian Kift [mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2023 11:14 AM
> To: Charles Engles; 'Bill Moore'; 'Daniel C Jones'; gsedwards at cox.net;
> 'David'
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; 'Mike Drew'
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
> headers
>
>
> Chuck,
> 1. A Windsor, because no one ever managed to get a Cleveland to
> produce a reliable 525HP.........
> 2. Pulling the engine to address a header bolt sounds akin to
> performing a lobotomy to address a headache....
>
> I prefer studs personally; it is then easier to use a cut or shaped
> washer spacer behind the nut to stand it off and provide greater
> access.
>
>
> Julian
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
> Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
> Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2023 6:31 AM
> To: 'Bill Moore' <billmoore6480 at gmail.com>; 'Daniel C Jones'
> <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>; gsedwards at cox.net <gsedwards at cox.net>;
> 'David' <david at msmcontractors.org>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; 'Mike Drew' <mikeldrew at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
> headers
>
>
> Dear Guys,
>
> 1) Bill: I have three Cleveland engines. The Windsor engine,
> Pantera and headers, in question, belong to my brother. The Windsor
> does have the redeeming feature of 525 hp....
> 2) How about this plan: a) I pull the engine and put it on a
> stand; b) I then place the headers on the heads and...; c) take
> pictures of the current intolerable header/flange/bolt condition
> and.....; d) proceed to test various other options with pictures
> 3) Be patient. It will take a bit of time to get the engine out
> and on the stand.
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
>
> From: Bill Moore [[1]mailto:billmoore6480 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 7:50 PM
> To: Charles Engles; 'Daniel C Jones'
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
> headers
>
> Get a Cleveland engine !
>
> Cheers
>
> Bill Moore
> 403.860.4300
> Calgary / Goodyear
> _____
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
> Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 2:41:03 PM
> To: 'Daniel C Jones' <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
> headers
>
> Dear Dan, Mike, Will and Jack,
> The Allen head socket cap bolts are a consideration.
> Using a socket with an attached allen wrench with a ball head seems
> like it would work except the head diameter of the socket head is
> 9/16ths which is too big for all the problematic exhaust bolt/flange
> holes.
> Dan confirmed my thinking that a machine shop could make
> the heads smaller. There is a shop nearby and I will buy a handful of
> allen head socket cap bolts and have them made smaller. I'll then test
> the concept. If it is good then I'll complete the set of sixteen.
> It could work.
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [[2]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
> Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 10:09 AM
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
> headers
> Chuck,
> Have you tried Allen head cap screws?:
> [3]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
> w.aftfasteners.com%2Fcylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws%2F&data=05%7C01
> %7C%7Cdcf275deac7c4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaa
> aa%7C1%7C0%7C638256295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
> wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sda
> ta=HmIhxqLB%2Fq0zFPRMcQ6p5DbsCNViJqaVe0GBq4kC%2Bx4%3D&reserved=0
> They don't have shoulders and you can turn the OD down if needed.
> Dan Jones
>> On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 9:52AM Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>> Dear Mike and Larry,
>>
>>
>> Good news: you're right. ARP does make those
> 5/16ths
>> inch wrench-size bolts.
>>
>>
>> Bad news: the bolt head flange is still, according
> to
>> ARP tech, 1/2" diameter.
>>
>>
>> Good news: it is better than the current bolts.
>> Progress
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Chuck Engles
>>
>>
>> From: Mike Drew [[4]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 8:41 PM
>> To: Charles Engles
>> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and
> Pantera
>> headers
>>
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>>
>> You don't have a header problem. You have a header BOLT problem.
>>
>>
>> Wise people will heave their standard header boots over a hedge
> and
>> replace them with ARP bolts which have a 3/8 inch shank but use a
>> smaller 5/16 wrench. This makes a massive difference.
>>
>>
>> arp-100-1110_xl.jpg
>>
>> [1]ARP 100-1110 ARP Chromoly Header Bolt Kits
>>
>> [2]summitracing.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Having said that, the Windsor headers are constructed such that if
> you
>> are incautious with installation, and cinch down certain bolts
> before
>> having inserted other bolts, you then can't get the remaining
> bolts
>> started. As a general rule, you feed the bolts through the holes
> on the
>> inside of the pipe bends first. Get all those bolts started in the
>> threads, then tighten them down (loosely).
>>
>>
>> Then install the bolts on the outside of the bends, tighten them
> down
>> loosely. Tighten the inside bolts fully then the outside ones.
>>
>>
>> Having studs and nuts on two holes on each side is a good idea.
> They
>> need to be outside-the-bend holes as the nuts are, if memory
> serves,
>> 7/16 or maybe even 1/2.
>>
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 20, 2023, at 20:55, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Forum,
>> All of my Pantera experience has been with
> Clevelands.
>> Currently, I am working on my brother's Pantera with a 427
> Windsor
>> stroker in it. I have just removed the headers and observed
> that
>> while
>> the access to the exhaust bolts was not bad, the problem was
> very
>> little clearance between the proximal primary tube and the hex
> bolt
>> head.
>> Several of the bolts required slow, tedious removal
> with
>> approximately 1/6 to 1/12^th of a turn needed to remove it.
>> I had an appropriately sized socket head bolt and it
> had
>> the same interference issues as the hex bolt.
>> I tried an exhaust stud, but.....the twelve point
> small
>> 7/16^th inch nuts had the same fitment issues.
>> The headers are from P.I. M.
>> Can Windsor powered Pantera owners tell me if this
> is
>> inherent with Windsor engines and Pantera headers or are there
> better
>> headers out there?
>> Curious, Chuck Englesl
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>
> [5]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv
> er.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd
> cf275deac7c4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
> 7C0%7C638256295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
> JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1Vj9
> O4BIhx5On2MDpFKu9zwNWGxSwg%2BfnsX3kIHSlJo%3D&reserved=0
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1.
> [6]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
> .summitracing.com%2Fparts%2Farp-100-1110&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cdcf275deac7c
> 4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63825
> 6295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM
> zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zIjbY4DBgp2J1Yn
> Q%2FsLD75YtVnFxwNj1QTkEbin1imA%3D&reserved=0
>> 2.
> [7]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
> .summitracing.com%2Fparts%2Farp-100-1110&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cdcf275deac7c
> 4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63825
> 6295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM
> zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zIjbY4DBgp2J1Yn
> Q%2FsLD75YtVnFxwNj1QTkEbin1imA%3D&reserved=0
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
>> exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>
> [8]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv
> er.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd
> cf275deac7c4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
> 7C0%7C638256295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
> JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1Vj9
> O4BIhx5On2MDpFKu9zwNWGxSwg%2BfnsX3kIHSlJo%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>> approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [9]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv
> er.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd
> cf275deac7c4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
> 7C0%7C638256295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
> JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1Vj9
> O4BIhx5On2MDpFKu9zwNWGxSwg%2BfnsX3kIHSlJo%3D&reserved=0
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:billmoore6480 at gmail.com
> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. https://www.aftfasteners.com/cylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws/
> 4. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
> 5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 6. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110
> 7. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110
> 8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list