[DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers

Sat Jul 22 12:49:45 EDT 2023

I don't think studs will work.  Been there on a Windsor.  It's too tight.  That's why big headers often have an extra set of holes that are spaced further out.

I have used a ball peen hammer, plus a BFH (place the peen where you need relief, hit it with the BFH).

I've also used a Dremel or grinder to create the necessary access, and then MIG any holes created.  It's not that big of a deal if you have a MIG.

I've used allen bolts with a ball end to get the bolts close.  It's hard to get enough torque with a ball end allen.  But you can then use an open end wrench to get it tight.

It helps to keep the header loose while you do the difficult bolts.  Do the easy bolts last.

You can practice on a spare set of heads that are not in the car.  If you can't get them installed outside the car, it'll be murder with the engine installed.

On 7/22/23, 12:14 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Julian Kift" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of julian_kift at hotmail.com <mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>> wrote:

Chuck,

1. A Windsor, because no one ever managed to get a Cleveland to
produce a reliable 525HP.........
2. Pulling the engine to address a header bolt sounds akin to
performing a lobotomy to address a headache....

I prefer studs personally; it is then easier to use a cut or shaped
washer spacer behind the nut to stand it off and provide greater
access.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________

From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of
Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net <mailto:cengles at cox.net>>
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2023 6:31 AM
To: 'Bill Moore' <billmoore6480 at gmail.com <mailto:billmoore6480 at gmail.com>>; 'Daniel C Jones'
<daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>>; gsedwards at cox.net <mailto:gsedwards at cox.net> <gsedwards at cox.net <mailto:gsedwards at cox.net>>;
'David' <david at msmcontractors.org <mailto:david at msmcontractors.org>>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>>; 'Mike Drew' <mikeldrew at aol.com <mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com>>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
headers

Dear Guys,

1) Bill: I have three Cleveland engines. The Windsor engine,
Pantera and headers, in question, belong to my brother. The Windsor
does have the redeeming feature of 525 hp....
2) How about this plan: a) I pull the engine and put it on a
stand; b) I then place the headers on the heads and...; c) take
pictures of the current intolerable header/flange/bolt condition
and.....; d) proceed to test various other options with pictures
3) Be patient. It will take a bit of time to get the engine out
and on the stand.

Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

From: Bill Moore [[1]mailto:billmoore6480 at gmail.com <mailto:billmoore6480 at gmail.com>]
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 7:50 PM
To: Charles Engles; 'Daniel C Jones'
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
headers

Get a Cleveland engine !

Cheers

Bill Moore
403.860.4300
Calgary / Goodyear
_____
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of
Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net <mailto:cengles at cox.net>>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 2:41:03 PM
To: 'Daniel C Jones' <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
headers

Dear Dan, Mike, Will and Jack,
The Allen head socket cap bolts are a consideration.
Using a socket with an attached allen wrench with a ball head seems
like it would work except the head diameter of the socket head is
9/16ths which is too big for all the problematic exhaust bolt/flange
holes.
Dan confirmed my thinking that a machine shop could make
the heads smaller. There is a shop nearby and I will buy a handful of
allen head socket cap bolts and have them made smaller. I'll then test
the concept. If it is good then I'll complete the set of sixteen.
It could work.
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [[2]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>] On
Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 10:09 AM
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
headers
Chuck,
Have you tried Allen head cap screws?:
[3]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww>
w.aftfasteners.com%2Fcylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws%2F&data=05%7C01
%7C%7Cdcf275deac7c4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaa
aa%7C1%7C0%7C638256295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sda
ta=HmIhxqLB%2Fq0zFPRMcQ6p5DbsCNViJqaVe0GBq4kC%2Bx4%3D&reserved=0
They don't have shoulders and you can turn the OD down if needed.
Dan Jones
On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 9:52AM Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net <mailto:cengles at cox.net>> wrote:
> Dear Mike and Larry,
>
>
> Good news: you're right. ARP does make those
5/16ths
> inch wrench-size bolts.
>
>
> Bad news: the bolt head flange is still, according
to
> ARP tech, 1/2" diameter.
>
>
> Good news: it is better than the current bolts.
> Progress
>
>
> Thanks, Chuck Engles
>
>
> From: Mike Drew [[4]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com <mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com>]
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 8:41 PM
> To: Charles Engles
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and
Pantera
> headers
>
>
> Chuck,
>
>
> You don't have a header problem. You have a header BOLT problem.
>
>
> Wise people will heave their standard header boots over a hedge
and
> replace them with ARP bolts which have a 3/8 inch shank but use a
> smaller 5/16 wrench. This makes a massive difference.
>
>
> arp-100-1110_xl.jpg
>
> [1]ARP 100-1110 ARP Chromoly Header Bolt Kits
>
> [2]summitracing.com
>
>
>
> Having said that, the Windsor headers are constructed such that if
you
> are incautious with installation, and cinch down certain bolts
before
> having inserted other bolts, you then can't get the remaining
bolts
> started. As a general rule, you feed the bolts through the holes
on the
> inside of the pipe bends first. Get all those bolts started in the
> threads, then tighten them down (loosely).
>
>
> Then install the bolts on the outside of the bends, tighten them
down
> loosely. Tighten the inside bolts fully then the outside ones.
>
>
> Having studs and nuts on two holes on each side is a good idea.
They
> need to be outside-the-bend holes as the nuts are, if memory
serves,
> 7/16 or maybe even 1/2.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 20, 2023, at 20:55, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net <mailto:cengles at cox.net>> wrote:
>
> Dear Forum,
> All of my Pantera experience has been with
Clevelands.
> Currently, I am working on my brother's Pantera with a 427
Windsor
> stroker in it. I have just removed the headers and observed
that
> while
> the access to the exhaust bolts was not bad, the problem was
very
> little clearance between the proximal primary tube and the hex
bolt
> head.
> Several of the bolts required slow, tedious removal
with
> approximately 1/6 to 1/12^th of a turn needed to remove it.
> I had an appropriately sized socket head bolt and it
had
> the same interference issues as the hex bolt.
> I tried an exhaust stud, but.....the twelve point
small
> 7/16^th inch nuts had the same fitment issues.
> The headers are from P.I. M.
> Can Windsor powered Pantera owners tell me if this
is
> inherent with Windsor engines and Pantera headers or are there
better
> headers out there?
> Curious, Chuck Englesl
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>
[5]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv>
er.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd
cf275deac7c4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
7C0%7C638256295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1Vj9
O4BIhx5On2MDpFKu9zwNWGxSwg%2BfnsX3kIHSlJo%3D&reserved=0
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1.
[6]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww>
.summitracing.com%2Fparts%2Farp-100-1110&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cdcf275deac7c
4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63825
6295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM
zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zIjbY4DBgp2J1Yn
Q%2FsLD75YtVnFxwNj1QTkEbin1imA%3D&reserved=0
> 2.
[7]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww>
.summitracing.com%2Fparts%2Farp-100-1110&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cdcf275deac7c
4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63825
6295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM
zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zIjbY4DBgp2J1Yn
Q%2FsLD75YtVnFxwNj1QTkEbin1imA%3D&reserved=0
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>
[8]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv>
er.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd
cf275deac7c4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
7C0%7C638256295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1Vj9
O4BIhx5On2MDpFKu9zwNWGxSwg%2BfnsX3kIHSlJo%3D&reserved=0
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> approve the archiving of list messages.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[9]https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserv>
er.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd
cf275deac7c4ccbf14c08db8ab809e4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
7C0%7C638256295321269672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1Vj9
O4BIhx5On2MDpFKu9zwNWGxSwg%2BfnsX3kIHSlJo%3D&reserved=0
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

1. mailto:billmoore6480 at gmail.com <mailto:billmoore6480 at gmail.com>
2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>
3. https://www.aftfasteners.com/cylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws/ <https://www.aftfasteners.com/cylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws/>
4. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com <mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com>
5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso <http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
6. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110 <https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110>
7. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110 <https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110>
8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso <http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso <http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
_______________________________________________

Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com <mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso <http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>

To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.

Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.