[DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera headers
Daniel C Jones
daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
Fri Jul 21 17:09:06 EDT 2023
You can shorten the Allen wrench and/or heat and bend as needed. I've got
a couple that have been altered. When heating and bending, chuck up a
socket head in the vice and use it as the anchor for bending. A long box
end wrench over the straight end works well to provide leverage. Then
finish off by shortening, if necessary.
On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 3:41 PM Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
> Dear Dan, Mike, Will and Jack,
>
> The Allen head socket cap bolts are a consideration. Using
> a socket with an attached allen wrench with a ball head seems like it would
> work except the head diameter of the socket head is 9/16ths which is too
> big for all the problematic exhaust bolt/flange holes.
>
> Dan confirmed my thinking that a machine shop could make
> the heads smaller. There is a shop nearby and I will buy a handful of
> allen head socket cap bolts and have them made smaller. I'll then test the
> concept. If it is good then I'll complete the set of sixteen.
>
> It could work.
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
> Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 10:09 AM
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
> headers
>
> Chuck,
>
> Have you tried Allen head cap screws?:
>
> https://www.aftfasteners.com/cylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws/
>
> They don't have shoulders and you can turn the OD down if needed.
>
> Dan Jones
>
> On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 9:52 AM Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Dear Mike and Larry,
> >
> >
> > Good news: you're right. ARP does make those 5/16ths
> > inch wrench-size bolts.
> >
> >
> > Bad news: the bolt head flange is still, according to
> > ARP tech, 1/2" diameter.
> >
> >
> > Good news: it is better than the current bolts.
> > Progress
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Chuck Engles
> >
> >
> > From: Mike Drew [mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 8:41 PM
> > To: Charles Engles
> > Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
> > headers
> >
> >
> > Chuck,
> >
> >
> > You don't have a header problem. You have a header BOLT problem.
> >
> >
> > Wise people will heave their standard header boots over a hedge and
> > replace them with ARP bolts which have a 3/8 inch shank but use a
> > smaller 5/16 wrench. This makes a massive difference.
> >
> >
> > arp-100-1110_xl.jpg
> >
> > [1]ARP 100-1110 ARP Chromoly Header Bolt Kits
> >
> > [2]summitracing.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Having said that, the Windsor headers are constructed such that if you
> > are incautious with installation, and cinch down certain bolts before
> > having inserted other bolts, you then can't get the remaining bolts
> > started. As a general rule, you feed the bolts through the holes on
> the
> > inside of the pipe bends first. Get all those bolts started in the
> > threads, then tighten them down (loosely).
> >
> >
> > Then install the bolts on the outside of the bends, tighten them down
> > loosely. Tighten the inside bolts fully then the outside ones.
> >
> >
> > Having studs and nuts on two holes on each side is a good idea. They
> > need to be outside-the-bend holes as the nuts are, if memory serves,
> > 7/16 or maybe even 1/2.
> >
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jul 20, 2023, at 20:55, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Forum,
> > All of my Pantera experience has been with Clevelands.
> > Currently, I am working on my brother's Pantera with a 427 Windsor
> > stroker in it. I have just removed the headers and observed that
> > while
> > the access to the exhaust bolts was not bad, the problem was very
> > little clearance between the proximal primary tube and the hex bolt
> > head.
> > Several of the bolts required slow, tedious removal with
> > approximately 1/6 to 1/12^th of a turn needed to remove it.
> > I had an appropriately sized socket head bolt and it had
> > the same interference issues as the hex bolt.
> > I tried an exhaust stud, but.....the twelve point small
> > 7/16^th inch nuts had the same fitment issues.
> > The headers are from P.I. M.
> > Can Windsor powered Pantera owners tell me if this is
> > inherent with Windsor engines and Pantera headers or are there
> better
> > headers out there?
> > Curious, Chuck Englesl
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110
> > 2. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> > exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> > use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
> > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> > approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
You can shorten the Allen wrench and/or heat and bend as needed.A I've
got a couple that have been altered.A When heating and bending, chuck
up a socket head in the vice and use it as the anchor for bending.A A
long box end wrench over the straight end works well to provide
leverage.A Then finish off by shortening, if necessary.A
On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 3:41a-PM Charles Engles <[1]cengles at cox.net>
wrote:
Dear Dan, Mike, Will and Jack,
A A A A A A A The Allen head socket cap bolts are a
consideration.A Using a socket with an attached allen wrench with a
ball head seems like it would work except the head diameter of the
socket head is 9/16ths which is too big for all the problematic
exhaust bolt/flange holes.
A A A A A A A A Dan confirmed my thinking that a machine shop
could make the heads smaller.A There is a shop nearby and I will
buy a handful of allen head socket cap bolts and have them made
smaller.A I'll then test the concept.A If it is good then I'll
complete the set of sixteen.
A A A A A A A A It could work.
A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
On Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 10:09 AM
Cc: [3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and Pantera
headers
Chuck,
Have you tried Allen head cap screws?:
A [4]https://www.aftfasteners.com/cylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws
/
They don't have shoulders and you can turn the OD down if needed.
Dan Jones
On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 9:52a-AM Charles Engles <[5]cengles at cox.net>
wrote:
>A A Dear Mike and Larry,
>
>
>A A A A A A A A A A Good news: you're right.A ARP does
make those 5/16ths
>A A inch wrench-size bolts.
>
>
>A A A A A A A A A A Bad news: the bolt head flange is
still, according to
>A A ARP tech,A 1/2" diameter.
>
>
>A A A A A A A A A A A Good news: it is better than the
current bolts.
>A A Progress
>
>
>A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Thanks,A Chuck
Engles
>
>
>A A From: Mike Drew [mailto:[6]MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>A A Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 8:41 PM
>A A To: Charles Engles
>A A Cc: [7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: Windsor engines and
Pantera
>A A headers
>
>
>A A Chuck,
>
>
>A A You don't have a header problem. You have a header BOLT
problem.
>
>
>A A Wise people will heave their standard header boots over a
hedge and
>A A replace them with ARP bolts which have a 3/8 inch shank but
use a
>A A smaller 5/16 wrench. This makes a massive difference.
>
>
>A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A arp-100-1110_xl.jpg
>
>A A [1]ARP 100-1110 ARP Chromoly Header Bolt Kits
>
>A A [2][8]summitracing.com
>
>
>
>A A Having said that, the Windsor headers are constructed such
that if you
>A A are incautious with installation, and cinch down certain
bolts before
>A A having inserted other bolts, you then can't get the remaining
bolts
>A A started. As a general rule, you feed the bolts through the
holes on the
>A A inside of the pipe bends first. Get all those bolts started
in the
>A A threads, then tighten them down (loosely).
>
>
>A A Then install the bolts on the outside of the bends, tighten
them down
>A A loosely. Tighten the inside bolts fully then the outside
ones.
>
>
>A A Having studs and nuts on two holes on each side is a good
idea. They
>A A need to be outside-the-bend holes as the nuts are, if memory
serves,
>A A 7/16 or maybe even 1/2.
>
>
>A A Cheers!
>
>
>A A Mike
>
>
>A A Sent from my iPhone
>
>A A On Jul 20, 2023, at 20:55, Charles Engles
<[9]cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
>A A A Dear Forum,
>A A A A A A A A A A All of my Pantera experience has been
with Clevelands.
>A A A Currently, I am working on my brother's Pantera with a 427
Windsor
>A A A stroker in it.A I have just removed the headers and
observed that
>A A while
>A A A the access to the exhaust bolts was not bad, the problem
was very
>A A A little clearance between the proximal primary tube and the
hex bolt
>A A A head.
>A A A A A A A A A Several of the bolts required slow,
tedious removal with
>A A A approximately 1/6 to 1/12^thA of a turn needed to remove
it.
>A A A A A A A A A I had an appropriately sized socket head
bolt and it had
>A A A the same interference issues as the hex bolt.
>A A A A A A A A A I tried an exhaust stud, but.....the
twelve point small
>A A A 7/16^th inch nuts had the same fitment issues.
>A A A A A A A A A The headers are from P.I. M.
>A A A A A A A A A A Can Windsor powered Pantera owners
tell me if this is
>A A A inherent with Windsor engines and Pantera headers or are
there better
>A A A headers out there?
>A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Curious,A Chuck
Englesl
>A A _______________________________________________
>A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>A A DeTomaso mailing list
>A A [10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>A A [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe, etc.)
>A A use the links above.
>A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward any
>A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members
of the
>A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain
an archive
>A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
>A A 1. [12]https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110
>A A 2. [13]https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> [14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or
> approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:cengles at cox.net
2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. https://www.aftfasteners.com/cylindrical-socket-head-cap-screws/
5. mailto:cengles at cox.net
6. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
7. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
8. http://summitracing.com/
9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
12. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110
13. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1110
14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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