[DeTomaso] No Pantera Content / Elect, Cars
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 21 14:08:19 EST 2022
My experience with IC engines is that with synthetic oil the engine lasts longer than the rest of the car. I think the personal issue is if you ever recover the additional cost of the EV. Fortunately I'm only using 5 or 6 gallons of gas a week. If there were no subsidies for EVs and gas was $3 a gallon, I'd be spending less than $1,000 a year on gas, and I'd never recover the additional cost of the EV.
I see a folks claiming that a lot of carbon and other "bad"? stuff is created making the batteries. I have no idea whom to believe any more, so I don't know what the real environmental story is. Pretty sad. It all seems political.
Ken
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 09:19:28 AM PST, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
Charging practices, discharge rate, climate all play a role in a
battery life, but "range anxiety" is much more prevalent in EV's,
partly because of the current lack of infrastructure and rapid charging
stations, but would you take your ICE to the gas station every night
and top it up?
From a recycling perspective we are working on an average EV battery
life of 11 years, to be proven as not many pure plugin EV's at end of
life yet, this compares to 12 years for an average ICE in the USA.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 9:00 AM
To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>; Will Kooiman
<will.kooiman at gmail.com>; Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No Pantera Content / Elect, Cars
What if you don't fully discharge your battery before re-charging?
Assuming that you drive your EV daily something less than 300 miles,
3000 daily charges is 8.2 years, or is it somewhat extended, or??
Larry
On 11/21/22, 8:52 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Julian Kift"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm actually heavily involved in EV battery recycling currently,
my
data suggests the Honda Insight is a Nickel Metal Hydride
battery,
which are much more prone to conditioning over time than Li-ion.
The typical EV Li-ion battery is good for 3,000 charges, that is
close
to 1 million miles assuming a 300-mile range. At the end of EV
life
60-70% capacity threshold there will still be short commuters
that are
willing to live with the reduced range, alternatively there is
already
a growing industry for second life repurposing of batteries for
stationery (UPS backup) type applications where charge &
discharge is
infrequent.
As Jeff sated there are rapid advancements in battery
technology, the
key is making them cost effective to mass produce. That said
with the
number of new Gigafactories coming online in the US it will be a
while
before the industry switches to a whole new battery chemistry,
more
likely to be adopted and proven by the niche players initially.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 4:28 AM
To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No Pantera Content / Elect, Cars
The battery life/cost turned me off. Even if you take it to the
extreme (my Honda Insight), it would still have been cheaper to
buy a
normal compact.
The car was $20K in 2006. The battery replacement cost at the
dealer
was $4K, and it would last about 70,000 miles.
When the car was new, it would do about 75mpg. When the battery
was
dead, it would do about 55-60mpg. As the car aged, it lost
about
5-10mpg. The lifetime mpg was something like 55mpg for 250K
miles and
4 battery packs (replaced 3 times, and the last one was dead
when we
traded it in).
The battery part of the hybrid added about 15-20mpg. It was
drivable
with a dead battery, but it was really slow.
This was with a lithium-ion battery pack, and unless I'm missing
something, the current "improved" battery is still a lithium-ion
battery. Maybe they are calling 70K miles unlimited life.
That being said, I recently rode in a friend's Tesla Model S
dual
motor. It is impressive. I would love to have one - but not
because
it's cheaper or because it's better for the environment.
On 11/20/22, 12:17 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jeff Detrich"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
Agree that there are many differentA perspectives and
anecdotal
evidence,A as there shouldA be. My take is that
development of
EVs and
development of the electric grid to support them need to
happen
in
parallel. Doing everything linearly will take too much
time. And
one
thing that is really helping is technological advancement
inA
the
competitive free market sector, esp for batteries.
Repairable
batteries, quick charge batteries, cheaper batteries,
less rare
metal
batteries, higher capacity batteries, renewableA energy
storage
batteries are all on the horizon. Expect hiccups along
the
way.A But
in the meantime, if you can't justify the technology now,
hybrids might
be an alternative. A friend in Phoenix bought a Lexus NX
hybrid
SUV
late last year and is getting over 40 mpg in town vs 26
in the
non-hybrid.
Jeff
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 3:41 PM Ken Green via DeTomaso
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
A A I wonder if we will ever hear the truth any more?A
Listening
to both
A A sides, it sounds like one is in an alternative
universe.A It
seems like
A A electric cars can be a good thing for people with
a short
enough
A A commute to do it all electric, but will the saving
on gas
ever
make up
A A for the high initial cost?A I'm driving a car I
bought 3
years
old off
A A a lease, and it has cost me a fraction of the cost
of an
EV,
but I only
A A commute about 50 miles a week. An EV would never
be cost
effective for
A A me.
A A The batteries are claimed to last almost forever,
but why
do
they last
A A so long in a car, but not in anything else?A Is
it the
better
A A management?A All the rechargeable lithium battery
tools
I have
seem to
A A have have specific charging strategies, and say
the
batteries
don't
A A like heat.A Does this apply to EVs, and if you
live in
Phoenix
the
A A batteries will have a short life?
A A A friends hybrid battery failed, and even a
rebuilt
battery was
A A expensive.A With synthetic oil, my past and
present cars
seem
to run
A A for every, just a rebuilt transmission at 100,000
miles,
half
the $s of
A A a rebuilt EV battery.
A A I don't know if this is a reliable souse, but
maybe?
A
A
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B
Hower via
DeTomaso
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A A FWIWA __A Electric Cars:
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-------------- next part --------------
My experience with IC engines is that with synthetic oil the engine
lasts longer than the rest of the car. I think the personal issue is
if you ever recover the additional cost of the EV. Fortunately I'm
only using 5 or 6 gallons of gas a week. If there were no subsidies
for EVs and gas was $3 a gallon, I'd be spending less than $1,000 a
year on gas, and I'd never recover the additional cost of the EV.
I see a folks claiming that a lot of carbon and other "bad"? stuff is
created making the batteries. I have no idea whom to believe any more,
so I don't know what the real environmental story is. Pretty sad. It
all seems political.
Ken
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 09:19:28 AM PST, Julian Kift
<julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
Charging practices, discharge rate, climate all play a role in a
battery life, but "range anxiety" is much more prevalent in EV's,
partly because of the current lack of infrastructure and rapid
charging
stations, but would you take your ICE to the gas station every night
and top it up?
From a recycling perspective we are working on an average EV battery
life of 11 years, to be proven as not many pure plugin EV's at end of
life yet, this compares to 12 years for an average ICE in the USA.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Stock <[1]larrys at panteraparts.com>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 9:00 AM
To: Julian Kift <[2]julian_kift at hotmail.com>; Will Kooiman
<[3]will.kooiman at gmail.com>; Jeff Detrich <[4]jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Cc: [5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No Pantera Content / Elect, Cars
What if you don't fully discharge your battery before re-charging?
Assuming that you drive your EV daily something less than 300 miles,
3000 daily charges is 8.2 years, or is it somewhat extended, or??
Larry
On 11/21/22, 8:52 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Julian Kift"
<[7]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[8]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm actually heavily involved in EV battery recycling
currently,
my
data suggests the Honda Insight is a Nickel Metal Hydride
battery,
which are much more prone to conditioning over time than
Li-ion.
The typical EV Li-ion battery is good for 3,000 charges, that
is
close
to 1 million miles assuming a 300-mile range. At the end of
EV
life
60-70% capacity threshold there will still be short commuters
that are
willing to live with the reduced range, alternatively there
is
already
a growing industry for second life repurposing of batteries
for
stationery (UPS backup) type applications where charge &
discharge is
infrequent.
As Jeff sated there are rapid advancements in battery
technology, the
key is making them cost effective to mass produce. That said
with the
number of new Gigafactories coming online in the US it will
be a
while
before the industry switches to a whole new battery
chemistry,
more
likely to be adopted and proven by the niche players
initially.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[9]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>
on
behalf of
Will Kooiman <[10]will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 4:28 AM
To: Jeff Detrich <[11]jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Cc: [12]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[13]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No Pantera Content / Elect, Cars
The battery life/cost turned me off. Even if you take it to
the
extreme (my Honda Insight), it would still have been cheaper
to
buy a
normal compact.
The car was $20K in 2006. The battery replacement cost at
the
dealer
was $4K, and it would last about 70,000 miles.
When the car was new, it would do about 75mpg. When the
battery
was
dead, it would do about 55-60mpg. As the car aged, it lost
about
5-10mpg. The lifetime mpg was something like 55mpg for 250K
miles and
4 battery packs (replaced 3 times, and the last one was dead
when we
traded it in).
The battery part of the hybrid added about 15-20mpg. It was
drivable
with a dead battery, but it was really slow.
This was with a lithium-ion battery pack, and unless I'm
missing
something, the current "improved" battery is still a
lithium-ion
battery. Maybe they are calling 70K miles unlimited life.
That being said, I recently rode in a friend's Tesla Model S
dual
motor. It is impressive. I would love to have one - but not
because
it's cheaper or because it's better for the environment.
On 11/20/22, 12:17 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jeff Detrich"
<[14]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[15]jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
Agree that there are many differentA perspectives and
anecdotal
evidence,A as there shouldA be. My take is that
development of
EVs and
development of the electric grid to support them need
to
happen
in
parallel. Doing everything linearly will take too much
time. And
one
thing that is really helping is technological
advancement
inA
the
competitive free market sector, esp for batteries.
Repairable
batteries, quick charge batteries, cheaper batteries,
less rare
metal
batteries, higher capacity batteries, renewableA energy
storage
batteries are all on the horizon. Expect hiccups along
the
way.A But
in the meantime, if you can't justify the technology
now,
hybrids might
be an alternative. A friend in Phoenix bought a Lexus
NX
hybrid
SUV
late last year and is getting over 40 mpg in town vs 26
in the
non-hybrid.
Jeff
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 3:41 PM Ken Green via DeTomaso
<[1][16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
A A I wonder if we will ever hear the truth any
more?A
Listening
to both
A A sides, it sounds like one is in an alternative
universe.A It
seems like
A A electric cars can be a good thing for people
with
a short
enough
A A commute to do it all electric, but will the
saving
on gas
ever
make up
A A for the high initial cost?A I'm driving a car I
bought 3
years
old off
A A a lease, and it has cost me a fraction of the
cost
of an
EV,
but I only
A A commute about 50 miles a week. An EV would never
be cost
effective for
A A me.
A A The batteries are claimed to last almost
forever,
but why
do
they last
A A so long in a car, but not in anything else?A Is
it the
better
A A management?A All the rechargeable lithium
battery
tools
I have
seem to
A A have have specific charging strategies, and say
the
batteries
don't
A A like heat.A Does this apply to EVs, and if you
live in
Phoenix
the
A A batteries will have a short life?
A A A friends hybrid battery failed, and even a
rebuilt
battery was
A A expensive.A With synthetic oil, my past and
present cars
seem
to run
A A for every, just a rebuilt transmission at
100,000
miles,
half
the $s of
A A a rebuilt EV battery.
A A I don't know if this is a reliable souse, but
maybe?
A
A
[1][2][17]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
2F%2
Fwww.consumeraffairs.com%2Fautomotive%2Fev-battery-replac&data=05%7
C01%7C%7Cb7ef708845db40ad71fd08dacbbbee8e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaa
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rved=0
ement-co
A A st.html
A A On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 06:45:35 AM
PST,
B
Hower via
DeTomaso
A A <[3][18]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
A A FWIWA __A Electric Cars:
A
A
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