[DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
Will Kooiman
will.kooiman at gmail.com
Mon Jul 18 07:23:14 EDT 2022
When this was discussed several years ago, someone wrote to Armando. They said something like, with the pan off the engine, add oil until it's at the bottom of the windage tray. This is your new full line. I don't recall the exact steps, so someone should find it in the archives. I did this with mine, and it was about 8 quarts. After I put the pan back on the engine, I added the same amount of oil, and it was right at the full line on the dipstick.
The ideal amount is just enough. If you add too much, it causes windage. I saw the same Engine Masters that Jack saw. They saw pretty large gains by using an expensive pan with large kickouts. It really surprised me. Of course, I knew it helped, but I didn't realize how much. Point being there are measurable gains by avoiding windage.
There's an excellent book on FE intake manifold comparisons. FEs have a sheet metal piece that fits under the rocker stands in the heads to help direct oil flow. There's an early version with longer fingers, and a later version. Jay, the author, wanted to see how they impacted oil drainback. He plumbed a clear site tube into an old oil pan so that he could watch the oil level in the pan at different RPMs, and of course with different configurations. It was interesting how much the oil dips under RPM.
On 7/18/22, 1:02 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Christopher Kimball" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:
Thanks again for all the info. Since it's probably better to run a
little low on oil than overfull, I'll probably put in a total of 8
quarts and call it good.
The wedding reception food was great, by the way--Texas barbecue pork
and beef!
Sincerely,
Chris
__________________________________________________________________
From: MICHAEL DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 7:55 PM
To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
Chris,
Yours is an excellent question.
*IF* the pan was a 10-quart pan then your strategy would be sound.
However empirical testing has revealed that they are more like 8.5-9
quarts. Why they are called 10-quart pans is anybody's guess.
Enjoy the wedding!
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 17, 2022, at 20:36, Christopher Kimball
<chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Our table hasn't been called to the buffet line yet, so I have
time for
> one more question! Why doesn't it make sense to simply add 10
quarts to
> an empty engine and then find out where the oil line is on the
> dipstick, and use that as the reference point? If it's a 10 quart
pan,
> it would seem that would make the most sense. Sincerely, Chris
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
> smartphone
> -------- Original message --------
> From: MICHAEL DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
> Date: 7/17/22 6:28 PM (GMT-08:00)
> To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt
pan.
>
> Chris,
> You are correct, measuring the tube is nearly impossible and there
is
> no standard to judge it against anyway.
> Years ago I had a bare Pantera block on an engine stand. I
installed
> the dipstick and tube and measured how far down the dipstick
extended
> below the lip where the pan mounts to the underside of the block.
It
> seemed to be a reasonable distance below the crank, and since the
> dipstick was the correct length I assumed the tube was correct as
well.
> I then have shared those pics with other people who are fabbing up
new
> dipstick tubes from scratch.
> The only really accurate way to assess the situation is with the
pan
> removed from the engine, which isn't practical for most people most
of
> the time.
> Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>>> On Jul 17, 2022, at 20:04, Christopher Kimball
>> <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's been a long time since I've had to deal with any of this, so
> my
>> memory is kind of fuzzy, but I do remember measuring things such as
> the
>> dipstick tube, and the dipstick, and making the mark based on those
>> measurements to ensure it was correct.. The fact that I put 6
> quarts in
>> it on Friday and it hasn't reached that mark would lead me to
> believe
>> the mark that was added is correct.
>> I would measure the dipstick, but at the moment I'm stuck at a
> wedding
>> reception! In the next day or two I'm going to take a look at how
> long
>> the dipstick is and see how that compares to the length it is
> supposed
>> to be. I'm not sure how I would measure the dipstick tube, however,
>> because the bottom end of it is so hard to reach. Sincerely, Chris
>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
>> smartphone
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
>> Date: 7/17/22 5:56 PM (GMT-08:00)
>> To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
>> Cc: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>,
>> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt
> pan.
>>
>> Chris,
>> You just arbitrarily put a new mark on your dipstick, without
> actually
>> bothering to measure how far it extends into the oil pan? What
> makes
>> you think your arbitrary mark is correct? And why would you presume
> the
>> original mark was wrong?
>> Mike
>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> On Jul 17, 2022, at 17:53, Christopher Kimball
>>> <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you for your input.
>>> I do have a "full" mark on the dipstick that was made years ago
>> after I
>>> installed the new 10 quart Armando pan.
>>> I think I will probably add a couple more quarts, totaling eight in
>>> all, because that should bring the level up to the line that I
>> scribed
>>> onto the dipstick at that time. 8 quarts may be a little low if it
>> is
>>> truly a 10 court pan, however, after seeing some of the comments
>> made
>>> earlier, 8 to 9 quarts seems sufficient for a pan of that type.
>>> Shortening the tube would only make things worse, I would actually
>>> have to shorten the dipstick in order to have the original dipstick
>>> markings show correctly, which I am a reticent to do. I will
>> probably
>>> just leave things as is, and any new owner will have to simply know
>>> that the new mark on the dipstick is the full line.
>>> Thanks again for all your help. Now that I have my car back you
>> can
>>> look forward with eager anticipation all the silly questions I will
>> be
>>> putting on the forum!
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Chris
>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
>>> smartphone
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
>> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>>> Date: 7/17/22 1:39 PM (GMT-08:00)
>>> To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt
>> pan.
>>>
>>> I can attest to some third-party dipstick tubes for the Pantera
>> being
>>> too long. We had a Pantera owner here in Spokane (transplant from
>>> California) who was constantly blowing oil out everywhere. He had
>> a
>>> 10-qt pan and it took 10+ quarts to read full on his dipstick.
>> But
>>> all
>>> the symptoms were that it was overfilled.
>>> Once I found out it had an aftermarket dipstick tube on it, we
>> drained
>>> the pan and put the recommended number of quarts in, based on
>> feedback
>>> here and which pan was installed. Once that was done, we cut the
>> end
>>> of
>>> the dipstick tube so the full mark on the dispstick read full.
>> Another
>>> method is to fill the proper amount and then scribe a new mark on
>> the
>>> dipstick. I preferred cutting the tube so we were using the stock
>>> marks, making the next owner comfortable with the readings and not
>>> wondering what the extra marks would have been.
>>> Mike Drew is correct.
>>> In Chris' case, if the dipstick were properly "re-marked" when the
>> new
>>> larger pan was put in years ago, then that is the mark they should
>>> probably use. At least to get started.
>>> Maybe worth a dip in the archives to figure out which pan he
>> originally
>>> purchased too. ;)
>>> Asa Jay
>>> Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
>>> Spokane County ARES-RACES-ACS EC/RO
>>> ******************************
>>>
>>
>
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>>> Oa1XTN4PkQENUi2uevxzAeSY%3D&reserved=0
>>>>> On 7/17/2022 12:37, MICHAEL DREW via DeTomaso wrote:
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> You are exactly right. The ONLY thing that dictates how much oil
>> goes
>>> into the pan is the distance between the top of the oil and the
>> bottom
>>> of the rotating assembly. That distance is fixed by the dipstick.
>> You
>>> could hang a pan the size of Lake Michigan under the engine and the
>> oil
>>> quantity would still be determined by the stock dipstick.
>>>>
>>>> (This presumes that the dipstick is actually correct which is by
no
>>> means a given. The TSB shows what the proper length should be--38
>>> inches from cup to tip. On Lori's 1971 the dipstick was too short
>> which
>>> meant there was too much oil in the engine. Rather than lengthening
>> the
>>> dipstick, instead we cut the appropriate amount from the back of
>> the
>>> tube which had the same effect.)
>>>>
>>>> The aftermarket "10-quart" pans are not quite that generous. Most
>>> people find they require 8.5-9 quarts including a bone dry filter.
>> If
>>> you pre-fill the filter it will easily hold a half quart which
>> would
>>> then reduce the amount you need to pour into the engine.....
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 17, 2022, at 15:17, Mike & Elizabeth
> <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see Chris' note below. I have a 10 qt pan in my car as
>>> well and
>>>>> was never under the impression that you needed to use a different
>>> mark
>>>>> on the dipstick. It should read the same for a stock pan as for
>>> one of
>>>>> the baffled 10-qt pans. You just have to put more oil in. I
>>> also seem
>>>>> to remember that it actually takes about 8.5 qts rather than the
>>> `10',
>>>>> being sure to run it to fill the oil filter before final measure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please refresh my memory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 10:36 AM
>>>>> To: Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Need a new name for Pandora
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll give it a couple of months--there are still things which
>>> need to
>>>>> be addressed, such as the oil pan. It appears there is confusion
>>> as to
>>>>> what pan I have on the car. back in 07 or so I bought what I
>>> think is
>>>>> a 10 qt Armondo pan, but I believe Denny only put 6 quarts in the
>>> car,
>>>>> since he must not have known the dipstick's original markings
>>> weren't
>>>>> correct after installing the new pan. I had a mark I made
>>> showing the
>>>>> correct fill line I added, so I have to figure out what the
>>> correct
>>>>> amount of oil should be.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Mike & Elizabeth <[1]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 9:29 AM
>>>>> To: [2]chrisvkimball at msn.com <[3]chrisvkimball at msn.com>
>>>>> Subject: Need a new name for Pandora
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris, now that you have your car back it may be a good idea to
>>> think
>>>>> of a new name for her so we can move on from Pandora . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> References
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. [3]mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
>>>>> 2. [4]mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
>>>>> 3. [5]mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>> 3. [3]mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
>>> 4. [4]mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
>>> 5. [5]mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
>>> 6.
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6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0wZdrehhq3H40sF5RU7Qx
0UnNpf%2B5JMT3v6zhPGSPcs%3D&reserved=0
> 3. [3]mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
> 4. [4]mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
> 5. [5]mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
> 6.
[6]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fser
ver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7
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DAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&s
data=wasBq8ChLG%2Fq2Z8nqMLrOYCwjfyI2zTbD3UKBS7JbBw%3D&reserved=0
> 7.
[7]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fser
ver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7
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%7C1%7C0%7C637937097171394387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwM
DAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&s
data=wasBq8ChLG%2Fq2Z8nqMLrOYCwjfyI2zTbD3UKBS7JbBw%3D&reserved=0
> 8.
[8]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fser
ver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7
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References
1. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw7tsc.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C4b39aa0d0afe4861676608da6868f0c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637937097171394387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WX2s2iSKdG7diIBPD8p2zRGAMPPeWzTE3r6FmU17u2k%3D&reserved=0
2. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.teampanteraracing.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C4b39aa0d0afe4861676608da6868f0c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637937097171394387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0wZdrehhq3H40sF5RU7Qx0UnNpf%2B5JMT3v6zhPGSPcs%3D&reserved=0
3. mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
4. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
5. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
6. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C4b39aa0d0afe4861676608da6868f0c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637937097171394387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wasBq8ChLG%2Fq2Z8nqMLrOYCwjfyI2zTbD3UKBS7JbBw%3D&reserved=0
7. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C4b39aa0d0afe4861676608da6868f0c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637937097171394387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wasBq8ChLG%2Fq2Z8nqMLrOYCwjfyI2zTbD3UKBS7JbBw%3D&reserved=0
8. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C4b39aa0d0afe4861676608da6868f0c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637937097171394387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wasBq8ChLG%2Fq2Z8nqMLrOYCwjfyI2zTbD3UKBS7JbBw%3D&reserved=0
9. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C4b39aa0d0afe4861676608da6868f0c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637937097171394387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wasBq8ChLG%2Fq2Z8nqMLrOYCwjfyI2zTbD3UKBS7JbBw%3D&reserved=0
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