[DeTomaso] Update on Distributor Pin issue, plus Rally and Laguna
Will Kooiman
will.kooiman at gmail.com
Wed Feb 16 12:16:21 EST 2022
I’m not knocking a 351C block. They’re fine for the street or light racing.
Take a look at a Dart block, and you’ll be impressed. I bet a Dart block would handle 3,000 HP or more. I don’t know what they’re rated at.
Look at what Bob Glidden had to do to 351C blocks to run them in Pro Stock. You could run a Dart block with only minor prep.
Better/thicker metal, better tolerances, better oiling, etc. It’s a race block, and it shows. After I saw my block, I had to smoke a cigarette.
From: Bill Moore <billmoore6480 at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 10:11 PM
To: "will.kooiman at gmail.com" <will.kooiman at gmail.com>, Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>, "spkorb at gmail.com" <spkorb at gmail.com>, Tony Lisa <anthony.s.lisa at gmail.com>, Kc Arthur <drtrcr1025 at aol.com>
Cc: List DeTomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Update on Distributor Pin issue, plus Rally and Laguna
Will
What's wrong with a "C" block. Mine is a mere 2 bolt, seven years 408 CID, 550 HP with 60,000 plus miles...... ? Just a truck engine.
Get Outlook for Android
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 7:11:01 PM
To: Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>; spkorb at gmail.com <spkorb at gmail.com>; Tony Lisa <anthony.s.lisa at gmail.com>; Kc Arthur <drtrcr1025 at aol.com>
Cc: List DeTomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Update on Distributor Pin issue, plus Rally and Laguna
Very cool Steve,
I haven't seen your car, and I don't remember all of your posts, so I don't know your engine.
Your car is at another level, so naturally you don't have to worry about plastic coated aluminum cam gears from an original Ford timing set.
You also don't have to worry about valve seals coming apart. I doubt that would happen with a recent "no expense spared" build.
It sounds like you're in good hands.
Is this a 351C block or are you allowed to use a 351W block? I ask because I have a Dart 9.2" block in my Pantera. It is night/day nicer than a stock 351C block. I had to grind on my engine mounts, because the block is so beefy, it interferes with the mounts.
On 2/15/22, 4:45 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Steve Lisa" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of stevelisa at patentit.com> wrote:
All,A
I continue to forward these emails to Tony and KC.A They are getting a
kick out of the "intensity" and free expressionA of opinion among the
list/group.A A
First, this motor was built with no expense spared by SRE engines of
Tuscon.A He also did our most recent NASCAR motor.A We are in
communication with SRE, who believe it or not, has a full one-year
warranty/guarantee on our race motor.A
SeeA [1]https://sre-engines.com/.A We won't do anything without his
approval so as to make sure we don't screw up the warranty.
So far, here is what I have been told, but KC and Tony are in charge,
so I may get it wrong:
* The MSD distributor had an oversized MSD pin, using a 3/16" chevy
pin instead of the small 1/8" ford pin.A A A We have since ordered
a package of the larger multi-layer pins to replace what was in
there.A Because SRE used an MSD pin (albeit a larger one), he is
now wondering if MSD has a run of bad pins or bought cheap pins.A
Anyway, we ordered the larger hardened replacement pins, the
stronger grade of the two that McMaster-Carr offers.A We will see
what shows up.
* The oil pump appears to be fine, as oil pressure was good
throughout the weekend including after it jumped timing.A It is
definitely not locked up and it can be drill-spun easily.A We
realize that is not definitive.
* Our screen on the pickup is very fine, thankfully. A
* We will cut the oil filter open and inspect it, as we do with every
oil change.A
* We will be draining the oil and will send some samples out for
analysis.A We will of course also look carefully for what is in
the pan, including with our fancy micro-camera.A A
* Our engineA builder says he would never run a brass gear with a
flat-tappet cam.
* The compression test we did at the trackA was perfect, but the
valve covers will be removed to check over everything regardless.A
In short, we are going to look logically and carefully at everything we
can and take our time beforeA pulling the engine.A We aren't racing
until the end of April.A We always have the option of pulling the
motor, depending on what we find and see, and sending it to Tucson for
SRE to handle under its warranty.A A A
I will ask the guys what we are running for anA oil pump and see if
they can send me some pictures of the gear/failure.
We will keep you all posted and let you know what we find from our
various inspections.A
I very much appreciate your passion and advice.A So, thanks!A
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[2]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [3]www.avg.com
On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 2:13 PM Sean Korb <[4]spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
I've been thinking about this a lot.A When I purchased my Pantera
20
years ago the reason it had been sitting and not running for *years*
with the previous owner was because of the distributor pin.A I
replaced it and it ran fine but I was suspicious. I pulled the motor
and after removing the oil pan my fears were confirmed.A Lots of
little bits of valve seals sitting in the bottom.A If you do have a
low mileage motor, it's really worth going through the motor, these
parts age and fall into the pan and it's unpredictable what could
happen.A They get filtered and it's not metallic, but the pump and
pin
are in danger.A There's also a possibility of nylon cam gears
scattered about too. The manifolds and front cover and the heads
were
off so I cleaned everything out; I replaced the valves with1 piece
unitsA and new valve seals. New timing set without the nylon gears
(noisy but the motor is 4 inches from my head) and while I was at
it,
I checked the ZF ring gear, it was already safety wired (I think all
the -1 were wired).
I replaced the oil pump with a stock one, I knew it had been through
a
lot even though it was currently working fine.
Anyway even if a Pantera isn't running, it's probably still a super
awesome deal and though I like to say it's a $0.07 cent part to fix
it, that's only technically true.A Same with any classic Ford.
sean
On 2/13/22, Daniel C Jones <[5]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>A A The pin is rarely the issue.AA The cause is debris getting
into the oil
>A A pump gears causing them to lock up momentarily.AA The stock
oil
>A A pickups have a bypass hole and many aftermarket pickups have
a
>A A coarse screen.AA Either can allow debris to make it to the
pump.
>A A Ford switched to a full mesh screen on later 335 series
engines
>A A (351C/351M/400).AA In street cars, debris is often from
failing valve
>A A seals.
>A A Dan Jones
>
>A A A AA A Our motor builder was aware of the pin issue.AAA A
So our MSD
>A A A AA A distributor already hadA an oversized pin -- a 3/16"
chevy pin
>A A A instead
>A A A AA A of the small 1/8" ford pin.AAA The builder used an
MSD pin, so
>A A A he is now
>A A A AA A wondering if MSD had a run of bad pins and is
concerned about
>A A A another
>A A A AA A engine he used one on (will be instructing theA
customer to
>A A A replace
>A A A AA A it).AAA Anyway, we ordered hardened replacement
pins, the
>A A A stronger grade
>A A A AA A of the two available grades of multi-layer Chevy
pins made by
>A A A AA A McMaster-Carr to replace what was in there.AAA A
All else
>A A A checked out
>A A A AA A ok.A A
>A A A A
>
--
Sean Korb [6]spkorb at gmail.com [7]http://spkorb.org (est 1994)
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
Picasso
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-------------- next part --------------
I'm not knocking a 351C block. They're fine for the street or light
racing.
Take a look at a Dart block, and you'll be impressed. I bet a Dart
block would handle 3,000 HP or more. I don't know what they're rated
at.
Look at what Bob Glidden had to do to 351C blocks to run them in Pro
Stock. You could run a Dart block with only minor prep.
Better/thicker metal, better tolerances, better oiling, etc. It's a
race block, and it shows. After I saw my block, I had to smoke a
cigarette.
From: Bill Moore <billmoore6480 at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 10:11 PM
To: "will.kooiman at gmail.com" <will.kooiman at gmail.com>, Steve Lisa
<stevelisa at patentit.com>, "spkorb at gmail.com" <spkorb at gmail.com>, Tony
Lisa <anthony.s.lisa at gmail.com>, Kc Arthur <drtrcr1025 at aol.com>
Cc: List DeTomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Update on Distributor Pin issue, plus Rally and
Laguna
Will
What's wrong with a "C" block. Mine is a mere 2 bolt, seven years 408
CID, 550 HP with 60,000 plus miles...... ? Just a truck engine.
Get [1]Outlook for Android
_______________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 7:11:01 PM
To: Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>; spkorb at gmail.com
<spkorb at gmail.com>; Tony Lisa <anthony.s.lisa at gmail.com>; Kc Arthur
<drtrcr1025 at aol.com>
Cc: List DeTomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Update on Distributor Pin issue, plus Rally and
Laguna
Very cool Steve,
I haven't seen your car, and I don't remember all of your posts, so I
don't know your engine.
Your car is at another level, so naturally you don't have to worry
about plastic coated aluminum cam gears from an original Ford timing
set.
You also don't have to worry about valve seals coming apart. I doubt
that would happen with a recent "no expense spared" build.
It sounds like you're in good hands.
Is this a 351C block or are you allowed to use a 351W block? I ask
because I have a Dart 9.2" block in my Pantera. It is night/day nicer
than a stock 351C block. I had to grind on my engine mounts, because
the block is so beefy, it interferes with the mounts.
On 2/15/22, 4:45 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Steve Lisa"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
stevelisa at patentit.com> wrote:
All,A
I continue to forward these emails to Tony and KC.A They are
getting a
kick out of the "intensity" and free expressionA of opinion
among the
list/group.A A
First, this motor was built with no expense spared by SRE
engines of
Tuscon.A He also did our most recent NASCAR motor.A We are in
communication with SRE, who believe it or not, has a full
one-year
warranty/guarantee on our race motor.A
SeeA [1]https://sre-engines.com/.A We won't do anything without
his
approval so as to make sure we don't screw up the warranty.
So far, here is what I have been told, but KC and Tony are in
charge,
so I may get it wrong:
* The MSD distributor had an oversized MSD pin, using a 3/16"
chevy
pin instead of the small 1/8" ford pin.A A A We have since
ordered
a package of the larger multi-layer pins to replace what was
in
there.A Because SRE used an MSD pin (albeit a larger one),
he is
now wondering if MSD has a run of bad pins or bought cheap
pins.A
Anyway, we ordered the larger hardened replacement pins, the
stronger grade of the two that McMaster-Carr offers.A We
will see
what shows up.
* The oil pump appears to be fine, as oil pressure was good
throughout the weekend including after it jumped timing.A
It is
definitely not locked up and it can be drill-spun easily.A
We
realize that is not definitive.
* Our screen on the pickup is very fine, thankfully. A
* We will cut the oil filter open and inspect it, as we do
with every
oil change.A
* We will be draining the oil and will send some samples out
for
analysis.A We will of course also look carefully for what
is in
the pan, including with our fancy micro-camera.A A
* Our engineA builder says he would never run a brass gear
with a
flat-tappet cam.
* The compression test we did at the trackA was perfect, but
the
valve covers will be removed to check over everything
regardless.A
In short, we are going to look logically and carefully at
everything we
can and take our time beforeA pulling the engine.A We aren't
racing
until the end of April.A We always have the option of pulling
the
motor, depending on what we find and see, and sending it to
Tucson for
SRE to handle under its warranty.A A A
I will ask the guys what we are running for anA oil pump and see
if
they can send me some pictures of the gear/failure.
We will keep you all posted and let you know what we find from
our
various inspections.A
I very much appreciate your passion and advice.A So, thanks!A
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[2]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A
A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may
contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this
email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me.
Thank
you.
Virus-free. [3]www.avg.com
On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 2:13 PM Sean Korb <[4]spkorb at gmail.com>
wrote:
I've been thinking about this a lot.A When I purchased my
Pantera
20
years ago the reason it had been sitting and not running for
*years*
with the previous owner was because of the distributor pin.A
I
replaced it and it ran fine but I was suspicious. I pulled the
motor
and after removing the oil pan my fears were confirmed.A Lots
of
little bits of valve seals sitting in the bottom.A If you do
have a
low mileage motor, it's really worth going through the motor,
these
parts age and fall into the pan and it's unpredictable what
could
happen.A They get filtered and it's not metallic, but the
pump and
pin
are in danger.A There's also a possibility of nylon cam gears
scattered about too. The manifolds and front cover and the
heads
were
off so I cleaned everything out; I replaced the valves with1
piece
unitsA and new valve seals. New timing set without the nylon
gears
(noisy but the motor is 4 inches from my head) and while I was
at
it,
I checked the ZF ring gear, it was already safety wired (I
think all
the -1 were wired).
I replaced the oil pump with a stock one, I knew it had been
through
a
lot even though it was currently working fine.
Anyway even if a Pantera isn't running, it's probably still a
super
awesome deal and though I like to say it's a $0.07 cent part
to fix
it, that's only technically true.A Same with any classic
Ford.
sean
On 2/13/22, Daniel C Jones <[5]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
wrote:
>A A The pin is rarely the issue.AA The cause is debris
getting
into the oil
>A A pump gears causing them to lock up momentarily.AA The
stock
oil
>A A pickups have a bypass hole and many aftermarket pickups
have
a
>A A coarse screen.AA Either can allow debris to make it to
the
pump.
>A A Ford switched to a full mesh screen on later 335 series
engines
>A A (351C/351M/400).AA In street cars, debris is often
from
failing valve
>A A seals.
>A A Dan Jones
>
>A A A AA A Our motor builder was aware of the pin
issue.AAA A
So our MSD
>A A A AA A distributor already hadA an oversized pin -- a
3/16"
chevy pin
>A A A instead
>A A A AA A of the small 1/8" ford pin.AAA The builder
used an
MSD pin, so
>A A A he is now
>A A A AA A wondering if MSD had a run of bad pins and is
concerned about
>A A A another
>A A A AA A engine he used one on (will be instructing
theA
customer to
>A A A replace
>A A A AA A it).AAA Anyway, we ordered hardened
replacement
pins, the
>A A A stronger grade
>A A A AA A of the two available grades of multi-layer
Chevy
pins made by
>A A A AA A McMaster-Carr to replace what was in
there.AAA A
All else
>A A A checked out
>A A A AA A ok.A A
>A A A A
>
--
Sean Korb [6]spkorb at gmail.com [7]http://spkorb.org (est 1994)
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
Picasso
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