[DeTomaso] 180 header rattle
Mike Drew
mikeldrew at aol.com
Tue Aug 2 01:18:04 EDT 2022
AJ,
That is very standard architecture. Normally 4-Into-4 header systems use only two overlapping flanges as MD’s do here. I have the same setup on my Cobra.
My Cobra has similar issues—I have had to pull pipes because the flanges broke away in the past.
The pipes are supposed to be a tight slip fit. They should not be rattling loose and there should not be any exhaust gas blow by. The problem is that the smaller ‘male’ pipe is a bit too small and needs to be expanded. This is the tool you need:
https://www.harborfreight.com/medium-exhaust-pipe-expander-57707.html
Be gentle and don’t expand it too much. It’s very easy to enlarge it and much harder to shrink it. In fact if you make it too big the easiest thing to do is then enlarge the other pipe.
As silly as it sounds, I have had tremendous luck sealing slip fit exhaust leaks with Permatex ultra copper gasket maker:
https://www.permatex.com/products/oreilly/permatex-ultra-blue-rtv-3-5oz/
You can use this stuff instead of exhaust gaskets between headers and cylinder heads (in fact one of my Sciroccos suffered an exhaust stud snap off and I just glued the header to the head and secured it with one stud/nut and it’s been sealed up for decades now).
Honestly you can probably skip the tailpipe expander and just use the permatex spizz. Fully coat the inside of the outer pipe and slide the inner pipe inside then quickly wipe away the excess and let it dry. It will both seal and cushion against vibration and end the rattling.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 1, 2022, at 22:53, Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Here are some photos. The last email got me back out to the shop to do a closer inspection. Lo and behold the bottom bracket on the passenger side muffler is broken. Two photos on that showing muffler laying in the bracket and one with me lifting it to show how it’s broken.
>
>
>
>
>
> These next series of photos show the crossover connections. You can see there are two sets of brackets with bolts. These are tight. However, the tube closest to the camera below is free-floating from exhaust port 3. It is tight at the exhaust port but is the source of the rattle with the tube it mates with. Now granted because the bracket is broken on the muffler, it’s contributing to the movement. I’ll get that fixed.
>
> Please also look at the amount of blow-by in the form of black soot. Yes, we know the engine has been running rich and we are tuning. But should those connections be passing that much exhaust past? That is what makes me think there should be some kind of gasket donut in there or something.
>
>
>
> I appreciate any and all thoughts.
> Thank you,
> Asa Jay
>
> Sent via radio waves
>
>> On Aug 1, 2022, at 19:04, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mirril,
>>
>> The collectors are solid. All four pipes on each side run into and are welded at the collectors. The collectors attach to the mufflers and all that part of the assembly is solid. It may be I’m not communicating this correctly and need to provide a photo. I’ll try to get that later.
>>
>> I agree it would seem the other pair of crossover tubes should have a bracket but they never had that I can tell.
>>
>> Asa Jay
>>
>> Sent via radio waves
>>
>>>> On Aug 1, 2022, at 16:31, mirrilm at earthlink.net wrote:
>>>
>>> Asa,
>>>
>>> Sounds like a bracket is MIA.
>>>
>>> My brackets attach to the mufflers, that hold the collectors that hold the 8 pipes together.
>>>
>>> I am on my second set from the same reputable vendor.
>>>
>>> What happened with mine is the Nylock nuts melt in the heat, and then loosen the bolts that hold the collectors to the 8 pipes. Then you get blow-by from the loose collectors.
>>>
>>> When I reassembled, I put a light skim coat of Hi-temp RTV inside each of the pipes, and have regularly checked the Nylock nuts for tightness and fit.
>>>
>>> I am also going to use header wrap around where the pipes meet the collectors.
>>>
>>> I keep eating slave cylinders and oil pressure senders from the excess heat and the blow-by (my bad).
>>>
>>> /\/\
>>>
>>> #6859
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf Of Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
>>> Sent: Monday, August 1, 2022 5:56 PM
>>> To: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 180 header rattle
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> I’m working on a Pantera with 180 headers. Where the crossover is, two sets of tubes are held together with tabs and a small bolt, while the other two are not.
>>>
>>> The issue is that the single tube from cylinder 3 is part of the crossover and the only place it bolts down is at the exhaust port, and it’s tight. But it rattles something fierce over the mating tube at certain rpm’s.
>>>
>>> Second issue is that all the joints at the crossover, four of them, are leaking exhaust.
>>>
>>> 1. Recommendations on stopping the rattle?
>>> 2. Are there supposed to be some kind of header gasket/donut in each of the crossover tubes to seal them together and prevent leaks? Assuming there is supposed to be something there, I imagine it would stop the rattling too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks all,
>>> :)
>>> Asa Jay
>>>
>>> Sent via radio waves
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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-------------- next part --------------
AJ,
That is very standard architecture. Normally 4-Into-4 header systems
use only two overlapping flanges as MD's do here. I have the same
setup on my Cobra.
My Cobra has similar issues--I have had to pull pipes because the
flanges broke away in the past.
The pipes are supposed to be a tight slip fit. They should not be
rattling loose and there should not be any exhaust gas blow by. The
problem is that the smaller `male' pipe is a bit too small and needs to
be expanded. This is the tool you need:
[1]https://www.harborfreight.com/medium-exhaust-pipe-expander-57707.htm
l
Be gentle and don't expand it too much. It's very easy to enlarge it
and much harder to shrink it. In fact if you make it too big the
easiest thing to do is then enlarge the other pipe.
As silly as it sounds, I have had tremendous luck sealing slip fit
exhaust leaks with Permatex ultra copper gasket maker:
[2]https://www.permatex.com/products/oreilly/permatex-ultra-blue-rtv-3-
5oz/
You can use this stuff instead of exhaust gaskets between headers and
cylinder heads (in fact one of my Sciroccos suffered an exhaust stud
snap off and I just glued the header to the head and secured it with
one stud/nut and it's been sealed up for decades now).
Honestly you can probably skip the tailpipe expander and just use the
permatex spizz. Fully coat the inside of the outer pipe and slide the
inner pipe inside then quickly wipe away the excess and let it dry. It
will both seal and cushion against vibration and end the rattling.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 1, 2022, at 22:53, Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Here are some photos. The last email got me back out to the shop to do
a closer inspection. Lo and behold the bottom bracket on the passenger
side muffler is broken. Two photos on that showing muffler laying in
the bracket and one with me lifting it to show how it's broken.
image0.jpeg
image1.jpeg
These next series of photos show the crossover connections. You can
see there are two sets of brackets with bolts. These are tight.
However, the tube closest to the camera below is free-floating from
exhaust port 3. It is tight at the exhaust port but is the source of
the rattle with the tube it mates with. Now granted because the
bracket is broken on the muffler, it's contributing to the movement.
I'll get that fixed.
Please also look at the amount of blow-by in the form of black soot.
Yes, we know the engine has been running rich and we are tuning. But
should those connections be passing that much exhaust past? That is
what makes me think there should be some kind of gasket donut in there
or something. image2.jpeg
image3.jpeg image4.jpeg image5.jpeg
I appreciate any and all thoughts.
Thank you,
Asa Jay
Sent via radio waves
On Aug 1, 2022, at 19:04, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
wrote:
Hi Mirril,
The collectors are solid. All four pipes on each side run into and
are welded at the collectors. The collectors attach to the mufflers
and all that part of the assembly is solid. It may be I'm not
communicating this correctly and need to provide a photo. I'll try
to get that later.
I agree it would seem the other pair of crossover tubes should have
a bracket but they never had that I can tell.
Asa Jay
Sent via radio waves
On Aug 1, 2022, at 16:31, mirrilm at earthlink.net wrote:
Asa,
Sounds like a bracket is MIA.
My brackets attach to the mufflers, that hold the collectors that
hold the 8 pipes together.
I am on my second set from the same reputable vendor.
What happened with mine is the Nylock nuts melt in the heat, and
then loosen the bolts that hold the collectors to the 8 pipes. Then
you get blow-by from the loose collectors.
When I reassembled, I put a light skim coat of Hi-temp RTV inside
each of the pipes, and have regularly checked the Nylock nuts for
tightness and fit.
I am also going to use header wrap around where the pipes meet the
collectors.
I keep eating slave cylinders and oil pressure senders from the
excess heat and the blow-by (my bad).
/\/\
#6859
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf
Of Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
Sent: Monday, August 1, 2022 5:56 PM
To: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] 180 header rattle
Hi all,
I'm working on a Pantera with 180 headers. Where the crossover is,
two sets of tubes are held together with tabs and a small bolt,
while the other two are not.
The issue is that the single tube from cylinder 3 is part of the
crossover and the only place it bolts down is at the exhaust port,
and it's tight. But it rattles something fierce over the mating
tube at certain rpm's.
Second issue is that all the joints at the crossover, four of them,
are leaking exhaust.
1. Recommendations on stopping the rattle?
2. Are there supposed to be some kind of header gasket/donut in
each of the crossover tubes to seal them together and prevent leaks?
Assuming there is supposed to be something there, I imagine it
would stop the rattling too.
Thanks all,
:)
Asa Jay
Sent via radio waves
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. https://www.harborfreight.com/medium-exhaust-pipe-expander-57707.html
2. https://www.permatex.com/products/oreilly/permatex-ultra-blue-rtv-3-5oz/
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