[DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
Mike Drew
mikeldrew at aol.com
Tue Feb 2 02:26:09 EST 2021
Thanks Julian,
Yes of course you are right. Sorry, I was thinking of a different video. I was on a late night Le Mans 1972 YouTube binge and forgot that the video link I sent was from 2018.
Duh! :)
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 1, 2021, at 20:42, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mike,
>
> The video was taken at Le Mans Classic 2018, chassis 2263 / 8263. There is some documentation on the PI board of the history and back story of 2263, where it sat in De Tomaso's back lot for many years after a minor race incident and insurance claim, when it was supposedly totaled. The latter 8263 sold as a GT5 and street registered for many years before recently being restored to the Group 4 car it is again now after discovery of all the chassis strengthening and other telltale signs it could be 2263.
>
> https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/pantera-2263-documented-history-of-the-first-factory-pantera-group-4-2263-8263
>
> As the first Group 4 it is of course possible it used stock components when first raced, however I think any and all of that might have been lost in translation during its later incarnation as a GT5 and subsequent restoration back toa Group 4. The Group 4 homologation papers from 1972 clearly show photos of front and rear adjustable sway bars, presumably they had to be installed to take the photos and the homologation approved prior to racing.
>
> Julian
>
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 8:17 PM
> To: L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
>
> Les,
>
> The car was almost brand new when the video was shot. They were subjected to a continuous improvement program, and the suspension modifications you are talking about were likely developed later.
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Feb 1, 2021, at 20:10, L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Mike,
> > I just viewed the video of the Mueller car and I am wondering how to understand the use of “stock” street Pantera lower rear control arms, along with a “stock” street rear sway bar configuration on this Factory Gr 4 race car ? Very curious ? ? ?
> >
> > Leslie A. Gray
> >
> >> On Jan 31, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I suspect any small speed increase will be due to smoothed airflow over
> >> the top of an unlatched hood and over the roof, not so much from
> >> increased airflow thru the grille & radiator, then somehow over the
> >> weatherstripped front trunk bulkhead and out the rear of the hood. It
> >> may be the reverse with vented Sunbeam Tiger LA front hoods.
> >> Remember those early comments on windshield wiper lift over 140 mph
> >> with stock Panteras, and the Gr-3 (& Hall Pantera) anti-lift wiper
> >> accessories to prevent this? That same lift-from-air-flow seems to be
> >> pulling up on the front hood. Michael, who made your current front
> >> hood? Does it have vents?
> >> Curious- J DeRyke
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com>
> >> To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>; Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
> >> Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> >> Sent: Sun, Jan 31, 2021 1:48 pm
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
> >> While at the Big Bend Open Road Race I've run with the front hood
> >> latched and unlatched at speeds between
> >> 120 and 150mph. Photos show an obvious bow in the hood while
> >> latched.
> >> While unlatched, it rose about 2 inches
> >> at speed. The car in the video had a much larger blade type air dam
> >> than mine and I'm sure it put much more air thru the
> >> radiator and under the hood. I'm not sure what speeds he was
> >> running,
> >> but I don't think most of it was much higher.
> >> The rear hood also rises smoothly and balances between pressure
> >> zones,
> >> probably reducing turbulence inside and
> >> outside the rear of the car.
> >> Jeff, both headlights were up. d-
> >> Michael
> >> Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10
> >> From: [2]Jeff Detrich
> >> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2021 11:38 AM
> >> To: [3]Mike Drew
> >> Cc: [4]De Tomaso Forum
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
> >> OOO-WEE.
> >> just curious, is that the right side headlight bucket sticking up?
> >> Jeff
> >> 6559
> >>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 1:23 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso <
> >>> [1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> >>> Guys,
> >>>
> >>> From Le Mans Classic in 2018, a great video of the ex-Herbert
> >> Muller
> >>> factory Gr4 Pantera. The team forgot to secure the front hood
> >> and
> >> it
> >>> floats at speed, which is actually aerodynamically beneficial!
> >>>
> >>> Great sound, great video....
> >>>
> >>> [1][2]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>> References
> >>>
> >>> 1. [5][3]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> >>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
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> >>> [6][5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>>
> >>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> >> etc.)
> >> use
> >>> the links above.
> >>>
> >>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> >> any
> >>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> >> list.
> >>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> >> approve
> >>> the archiving of list messages.
> >> References
> >> 1. [6]https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
> >> 2. mailto:[7]jjdetrich at gmail.com
> >> 3. mailto:[8]mikeldrew at aol.com
> >> 4. mailto:[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 5. [10]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
> >> 6. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >> DeTomaso mailing list
> >> [12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> >> use the links above.
> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> >> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> >> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> >> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >>
> >> References
> >>
> >> 1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 2. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
> >> 3. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
> >> 4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >> 6. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
> >> 7. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
> >> 8. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
> >> 9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 10. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
> >> 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >> DeTomaso mailing list
> >> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>
> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
> >>
> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
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-------------- next part --------------
Thanks Julian,
Yes of course you are right. Sorry, I was thinking of a different
video. I was on a late night Le Mans 1972 YouTube binge and forgot that
the video link I sent was from 2018.
Duh! :)
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 1, 2021, at 20:42, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mike,
The video was taken at Le Mans Classic 2018, chassis 2263 / 8263. There
is some documentation on the PI board of the history and back story of
2263, where it sat in De Tomaso's back lot for many years after a minor
race incident and insurance claim, when it was supposedly totaled. The
latter 8263 sold as a GT5 and street registered for many years before
recently being restored to the Group 4 car it is again now after
discovery of all the chassis strengthening and other telltale signs it
could be 2263.
[1]https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/pantera-2263-documented-history-of-
the-first-factory-pantera-group-4-2263-8263
As the first Group 4 it is of course possible it used stock components
when first raced, however I think any and all of that might have been
lost in translation during its later incarnation as a GT5 and
subsequent restoration back toa Group 4. The Group 4 homologation
papers from 1972 clearly show photos of front and rear adjustable sway
bars, presumably they had to be installed to take the photos and the
homologation approved prior to racing.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 8:17 PM
To: L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
Les,
The car was almost brand new when the video was shot. They were
subjected to a continuous improvement program, and the suspension
modifications you are talking about were likely developed later.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 1, 2021, at 20:10, L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Mike,
> I just viewed the video of the Mueller car and I am wondering how
to understand the use of "stock" street Pantera lower rear control
arms, along with a "stock" street rear sway bar configuration on this
Factory Gr 4 race car ? Very curious ? ? ?
>
> Leslie A. Gray
>
>> On Jan 31, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suspect any small speed increase will be due to smoothed
airflow over
>> the top of an unlatched hood and over the roof, not so much from
>> increased airflow thru the grille & radiator, then somehow over the
>> weatherstripped front trunk bulkhead and out the rear of the hood.
It
>> may be the reverse with vented Sunbeam Tiger LA front hoods.
>> Remember those early comments on windshield wiper lift over 140 mph
>> with stock Panteras, and the Gr-3 (& Hall Pantera) anti-lift wiper
>> accessories to prevent this? That same lift-from-air-flow seems to
be
>> pulling up on the front hood. Michael, who made your current front
>> hood? Does it have vents?
>> Curious- J DeRyke
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com>
>> To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>; Mike Drew
<mikeldrew at aol.com>
>> Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> Sent: Sun, Jan 31, 2021 1:48 pm
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
>> While at the Big Bend Open Road Race I've run with the front hood
>> latched and unlatched at speeds between
>> 120 and 150mph. Photos show an obvious bow in the hood while
>> latched.
>> While unlatched, it rose about 2 inches
>> at speed. The car in the video had a much larger blade type air
dam
>> than mine and I'm sure it put much more air thru the
>> radiator and under the hood. I'm not sure what speeds he was
>> running,
>> but I don't think most of it was much higher.
>> The rear hood also rises smoothly and balances between pressure
>> zones,
>> probably reducing turbulence inside and
>> outside the rear of the car.
>> Jeff, both headlights were up. d-
>> Michael
>> Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10
>> From: [2]Jeff Detrich
>> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2021 11:38 AM
>> To: [3]Mike Drew
>> Cc: [4]De Tomaso Forum
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
>> OOO-WEE.
>> just curious, is that the right side headlight bucket sticking
up?
>> Jeff
>> 6559
>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 1:23 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso <
>>> [1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>> Guys,
>>>
>>> From Le Mans Classic in 2018, a great video of the ex-Herbert
>> Muller
>>> factory Gr4 Pantera. The team forgot to secure the front hood
>> and
>> it
>>> floats at speed, which is actually aerodynamically beneficial!
>>>
>>> Great sound, great video....
>>>
>>> [1][2]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. [5][3]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> [6][5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> use
>>> the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
>> any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list.
>>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>> approve
>>> the archiving of list messages.
>> References
>> 1. [6]https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
>> 2. mailto:[7]jjdetrich at gmail.com
>> 3. mailto:[8]mikeldrew at aol.com
>> 4. mailto:[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 5. [10]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 6. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [2]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 2. [3]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 3. [4]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 4. [5]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 5. [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 6. [7]https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
>> 7. [8]mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
>> 8. [9]mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
>> 9. [10]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 10. [11]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 11. [12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 12. [13]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 13. [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/pantera-2263-documented-history-of-the-first-factory-pantera-group-4-2263-8263
2. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
3. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
4. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
7. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
8. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
9. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
10. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
12. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
13. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
16. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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