[DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing etc. Baffled and need Advice
Mike Drew
MikeLDrew at aol.com
Sun May 17 00:39:56 EDT 2020
Mike,
Clearly you and electrons aren’t getting along at the moment!
Your video link doesn’t work (at least not for me).
Can you be much more specific about what your car actually does? You say it “won’t start” But is that actually true? Does it just crank and crank and crank? Or is the problem that it will start but won’t run? That’s what most of us seem to believe now.
Don’t change the whole ignition switch if you don’t have to. Those switches are relatively rare and precious. You have an electrical problem. Change the electrical portion only, if necessary. If you don’t want to buy a new electrical portion, swap it over from your extra switch assembly.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On May 16, 2020, at 21:27, Mike Reilly <reillyms at live.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the thoughts everyone. Now that I have verified that the
> distributor pin is there and in good shape I reinstalled the
> distributor. Checked timing and still would not start. Here is a
> video of me trying to start it before my first post. I tried no
> throttle, two pumps on the throttle and then holding the throttle to
> the floor.
> [1]https://vimeo.com/user54794798/review/419467000/7ef023747b
>
>
> Next I will check out the ignition switch. I do have a spare if I need
> it which I bought probably 20 years ago at the San Diego swap meet when
> I lived there.
>
>
> One thing I had thought I listed in my initial email but seemed to have
> forgotten to add was that a month or so ago I was driving down a 40 MPH
> side street and the car just died. I had to coast to a safe parking
> lot. When I stopped it did restart and drove with no problem. Maybe
> this points to the ignition switch as well. Sorry I left that out : (
> We also had an internet outage for the past three days so I was
> composing mail on a small mobile device with spotty connections.
> Internet is back up but now I need to get the Pantera back in
> commission. Thanks, Mike R.
>
>
> From: [2]Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:02 PM
> To: [3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good
> timing etc. Baffled and need Advice
>
>
> Sounds more like it could be the column switch.
> My initial thought was the timing gear, nylon, old, breaks off, lets
> the
> chain jump a few teeth. Ask me how I know.
> Soooo... when that happened to -me-, the engine cranked over very
> -smoothly- with no backfires in the carb and none out the exhaust, it
> just wouldn't start. It wouldn't even catch. But boy it turned over
> real smooth, like a Singer sewing machine.
> Since this one sounds like it catches but doesn't stay running, I'd
> lean
> toward the ignition switch.
> By the way, I was able to see my cam gear had broken nylon by looking
> through the distributor hole. Not easy to do, but that's what showed
> me
> the nylon was gone.
> Asa Jay
> Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> Spokane County ARES-RACES-ACS EC/RO
> ******************************
> [4]http://w7tsc.org
> [5]http://www.teampanteraracing.com
>> On 5/16/2020 19:05, B Hower via DeTomaso wrote:
>> How far off does the timing have to be before you no longer get
> any
>> backfire while cranking ? I may be confused again, but it seems
> he has
>> spark while cranking, thus cam is turning so should have air,
> gas
>> squirts at carburetor. So if gas at cylinder and spark at
> cylinder,
>> shouldn't you get some type of back fire?
>> Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may
> not be
>> ! )
>>
>> On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 8:51:28 PM CDT, Dave Londry
>> <davel at trguys.com> wrote:
>> Yes, if not spark or fuel or air, then timing.
>> And per Sean, pin in distributor gear, timing gear or timing
> chain
>> gone
>> past by a few links.
>> Dave
>> On 2020-05-16 4:43 p.m., Sean Korb wrote:
>> Oh! Without taking the pump and cover off you can check the
> chain
>> slack
>> from the fuel pump hole.A Reach in before the eccentric and
> see if
>> itas loose.A Itas going to have some play but it will feel
> really
>> slack if the teeth have started to decay.
>> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 7:39 PM Sean Korb
> [1]<[1][1]spkorb at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> A timing light will show how close your timing is.A I worry
> the pin
>> is
>> sheared but binding on the shaft.A It should still be
> checkable by
>> sight which sounds like what you have done.A The other thing
> to
>> check,
>> since you have a stock timing set, is the nylon gear on the
> cam.A
>> These can crack and fall into your oil pan. A compression check
> can
>> help verify it but if itas that far off youall hear it draw as
> well
>> as
>> compress without even having to put a gauge on it.
>> Iam hoping itas just the ballast resistor but if you have stock
> 50
>> year
>> old nylon gears, put replacing them on the list.
>> Sean
>> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:06 PM Mike Reilly
>> [2]<[2][2]reillyms at live.com>
>> wrote:
>> A A Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that
> has
>> me
>> A A baffled.A I've had the car since 1992 and it's never
> left me
>> stranded.
>> A A It's been running strong and starting immediately
> including
>> right
>> A A before this situation.A Last weekend I started a drive
> with a
>> planned
>> A A stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way
> out.A So,
>> the car
>> A A started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then
> drove
>> perfectly the
>> A A 1/2 mile to the pet supply store.A I turned the car
> off,
>> bought dog
>> A A food and then got back in to continue my drive.A Well,
> the
>> car
>> would
>> A A not start.A It turned over fine, the battery was
> strong, the
>> starter
>> A A was cranking but it would not start seemly like it
> couldn't
>> get
>> a
>> A A spark.A I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it
> was
>> getting fuel
>> A A as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it
> throttle.A
>> I
>> A A thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins
> and
>> tried
>> A A again.A Same issue.A I pulled the driver side rear
> most plug
>> wire and
>> A A hooked up my spark tester.A It showed spark just
> fine.A I
>> let
>> it sit
>> A A for an hour.A Same issue.A It cranked fine, would
> sound like
>> it wanted
>> A A to fire but would not.A Even when I floored the gas
> pedal
>> while
>> A A cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up
> very
>> high like
>> A A it was running but would not catch to keep running.A I
> then
>> pulled all
>> A A the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with
> me.A
>> They
>> A A looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled
> which
>> was
>> A A probably from me trying to start it over and over
> creating a
>> rich
>> A A condition.A So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile
> back
>> to my
>> A A house on a flatbed.A : (A The next day when home I did
> the
>> following
>> A A (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
>> A A A * Checked fuel coming into the carb.A It was fine
>> A A A * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark
> and
>> it
>> was
>> A A A A getting spark at the plug just fine.A I gapped
> the new
>> plugs at
>> A A A A .054 based on research on this forum and other
> Ford
>> sources for a
>> A A A A 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic
>> ignition.A The one
>> A A A A I tested showed good strong spark.
>> A A A * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did
> the
>> rotor.A They
>> A A A A are both about a year old.
>> A A A * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll
> pin may
>> have
>> A A A A sheared).A Rotor would not turn by hand so I
> assume it
>> was still
>> A A A A connected through the shear pin (did check it
> later
>> though)
>> A A A * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I
> had
>> recently
>> A A A A purchased since I did notice my really old Holley
> 600
>> was
>> leaking
>> A A A A fuel at the base plate area.A However it was
> running
>> fine and
>> A A A A strong before I pulled it but it may have been
> running
>> rich based
>> A A A A on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel
> squirting so
>> looked
>> A A A A good.A Figured since I had spark, that maybe
> there was
>> some issue
>> A A A A with the Holley.A Same symptoms with the new
>> carb....didn't start
>> A A A A in the same manner.
>> A A A * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing.A
>> Cranked the
>> A A A A engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it
> to show
>> the timing
>> A A A A mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had
> set
>> last year.
>> A A A A The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to
> the #1
>> sparkplug
>> A A A A wire location at this timing.A This tells me that
> the
>> distributor
>> A A A A shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain
> is
>> still
>> keeping
>> A A A A things lined up
>> A A A * Still had the same issue of not starting with the
> same
>> symptoms
>> A A A * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll
> pin
>> sheared or
>> A A A A partially sheared.A It looked perfectly fine.A I
> did
>> notice the
>> A A A A inside of the distributor where the magnetic
> signal is
>> captured and
>> A A A A the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to
> align to
>> the sender
>> A A A A from the ignition box was had some light surface
> rust.A
>> But since I
>> A A A A had spark at the plugs it must still be working
> fine.A
>> I
>> cleaned it
>> A A A A up anyway while I had it out
>> A A Stats on my Pantera:
>> A A A * Late model 74
>> A A A * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never
> rebuilt
>> A A A * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
>> A A A * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold
> installed
>> nearly 30
>> A A A A years ago
>> A A A * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum
>> secondary (same
>> A A A A as the Holley set up I just took off)
>> A A A * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought
> from
>> Hall in
>> A A A A 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire
> support
>> coming from
>> A A A A the control box.A I wonder if this has failed?
>> A A A * New MSD coil (not the oil can type).A Bought this
> about
>> 4
>> months
>> A A A A ago and it was working great.A This is MSD, P/N:
> 8207
>> that is one
>> A A A A of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics)
> recommends
>> for his
>> A A A A system.A I did have a oil filled coil fail in the
> past
>> and that was
>> A A A A easy to diagnose and replace.A This new MSD coil
> made
>> the engine
>> A A A A really run nice!
>> A A A * Stock starter which cranks just fine
>> A A A * New battery (about one year old) which is strong,
> charged
>> and
>> A A A A cranks fine
>> A A A * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did
> clean up
>> the
>> A A A A braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part
> of
>> general
>> A A A A maintenance a few years ago
>> A A So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach.A
> Fuel,
>> Air,
>> A A Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression.A It has fuel, air,
>> spark,
>> and
>> A A timing.A Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a
> low
>> mile engine
>> A A which was running super strong.A I think a compression
> issue
>> would have
>> A A shown up with some symptoms rather than running great
> one
>> minute and
>> A A not starting the next.A As far as exhaust that is
> working and
>> not
>> A A clogged up in anyway.A I'm at a loss here as to what it
> could
>> be and
>> A A why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the
> next.A
>> Next
>> I'm
>> A A thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed.A Not sure
> if
>> those fail
>> A A in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing
> of
>> the
>> spark
>> A A is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are
>> appreciated.
>> A A Thanks, Mike
>> A A P.S.A I will post this on the Forum as well to get
> additional
>> input.A I
>> A A really want to get driving again : )
>> _______________________________________________
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>> --
>> Sean Korb [[5]5][5]spkorb at gmail.com [6][6][6]http://spkorb.org
> (est
>> 1994)
>> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
>> Picasso
>> --
>> Sean Korb [[7]7][7]spkorb at gmail.com [8][8][8]http://spkorb.org
> (est
>> 1994)
>> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
>> Picasso
>> References
>> 1. [9]mailto:[9]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 2. [10]mailto:[10]reillyms at live.com
>> 3. [11]mailto:[11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 4.
> [12][12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 5. [13]mailto:[13]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 6. [14][14]http://spkorb.org/
>> 7. [15]mailto:[15]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 8. [16][16]http://spkorb.org/
>> _______________________________________________
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>> --
>> Dave Londry
>> TRGuys.com
>> [19][19]davel at trguys.com
>> Cell 604-721-2278
>> Landline 604-589-9183
>> Skype embeddedspaces
>> References
>> 1. mailto:[1][20]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 2. mailto:[2][21]reillyms at live.com
>> 3. mailto:3][22]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 4. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 5. mailto:5][24]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 6. [25]http://spkorb.org/
>> 7. mailto:7][26]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 8. [27]http://spkorb.org/
>> 9. mailto:[28]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 10. mailto:[29]reillyms at live.com
>> 11. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 12.
> [31]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 13. mailto:[32]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 14. [33]http://spkorb.org/
>> 15. mailto:[34]spkorb at gmail.com
>> 16. [35]http://spkorb.org/
>> 17. mailto:[36]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 18.
> [37]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 19. mailto:[38]davel at trguys.com
>> _______________________________________________
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>> References
>>
>> 1. [6]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 2. [7]mailto:reillyms at live.com
>> 3. [8]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 4. [9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 5. [10]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 6. [11]http://spkorb.org/
>> 7. [12]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 8. [13]http://spkorb.org/
>> 9. [14]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 10. [15]mailto:reillyms at live.com
>> 11. [16]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 12. [17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 13. [18]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 14. [19]http://spkorb.org/
>> 15. [20]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 16. [21]http://spkorb.org/
>> 17. [22]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 18. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 19. [24]mailto:davel at trguys.com
>> 20. [25]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 21. [26]mailto:reillyms at live.com
>> 22. [27]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 23. [28]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 24. [29]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 25. [30]http://spkorb.org/
>> 26. [31]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 27. [32]http://spkorb.org/
>> 28. [33]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 29. [34]mailto:reillyms at live.com
>> 30. [35]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 31. [36]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 32. [37]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 33. [38]http://spkorb.org/
>> 34. [39]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
>> 35. [40]http://spkorb.org/
>> 36. [41]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 37. [42]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 38. [43]mailto:davel at trguys.com
>> 39. [44]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 40. [45]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
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> References
>
> 1. https://vimeo.com/user54794798/review/419467000/7ef023747b
> 2. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. http://w7tsc.org/
> 5. http://www.teampanteraracing.com/
> 6. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 7. mailto:reillyms at live.com
> 8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 10. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 11. http://spkorb.org/
> 12. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 13. http://spkorb.org/
> 14. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 15. mailto:reillyms at live.com
> 16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 18. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 19. http://spkorb.org/
> 20. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 21. http://spkorb.org/
> 22. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 23. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 24. mailto:davel at trguys.com
> 25. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 26. mailto:reillyms at live.com
> 27. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 28. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 29. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 30. http://spkorb.org/
> 31. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 32. http://spkorb.org/
> 33. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 34. mailto:reillyms at live.com
> 35. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 36. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 37. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 38. http://spkorb.org/
> 39. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 40. http://spkorb.org/
> 41. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 42. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 43. mailto:davel at trguys.com
> 44. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 45. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 46. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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