[DeTomaso] Oil cooler question

Julian Kift julian_kift at hotmail.com
Wed Sep 12 19:10:03 EDT 2018


I had bad experience with Redline in a Hewland, I kept destroying gears at $350/pr, when I had it all apart and in my hands changing out gears at the race track an old racer told me to switch oil brands. I chose Lucas Gear Oil and haven't lost a gear since.


Julian

________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 2:38 PM
To: jderyke at aol.com; kenn_green at yahoo.com; pantera at vtc.net; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question

I was told by more than one oil company that Organic oils start to break
down about 275F and loose total lubrication at 300 degrees F. Synthetic
oils do not break down at all until 300F. So if you exceed 275F with
Dinosaur oil, change it out. I burn¹t down my oil in a ZF in 90 miles at a
165 MPH average run. A drop of oil instantly turned to carbon upon contact
with the external ZF polished case. The ZF Organic oil was dripping off
the rear back panel of the Pantera at the end of this run. This old burnt
dinosaur oil Smelled really really bad to boot. (now I¹m beginning to talk
like Trump)
I recommend the RedLine Synthetic if you want to run at the limits, but
they will tend to leak the synthetic oil over the organic oil types.
Larry Stock
On 9/12/18, 2:00 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:

>   The normal response by oil experts & real racers is, the best regular
>   oil begins to thicken and char at around 290F while Synthetic is still
>   nice 'n slippery up to maybe 310F, in friction testers. As you say, the
>   remaining problem is, even synthetic thins to the consistency of cheap
>   vodka so actual bearing lubrication is spotty even if the oil is
>   undamaged. The other point is, instrumented engine tests by oil
>   companies have shown that the temps we're fretting about are oil pan
>   temps while oil-in-loaded-bearing temps are consistently about 30 F
>   higher! That's dangerous territory even with the best synthetics and
>   why prudent owners of big-power engines that get run wide open at SS
>   events etc, drive their Panteras by the pan oil temps rather than flat
>   out. IMHO, the ultimate oil cooler for such games is a full racing dry
>   sump oiling system.
>   On an allied subject, in actual tests I ran a decade ago on our
>   moderate bhp street '72, an instrumented ZF run at 110+ mph for 'quite
>   a while' on deserted highways to 'Vegas, took nearly the whole 450 mile
>   trip to get to 180F- not quite enough to evaporate condensation. But it
>   also took over 4 hrs to cool back down to a 'Vegas-ambient temp of 95F
>   while parked in a covered hotel garage. I've not done it, but SS
>   runners (93 miles long mostly flat out) tell me after a run over 140
>   mph avg, the ZF case is  'hotter than morning coffee' and you are
>   advised to not touch the case for a loong time! So if an engine oil
>   cooler is found to be necessary, maybe a ZF cooler like the GT-40s used
>   (two different types) might also be advisable in such Panteras?
>
>   Cheers- J DeRyke
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>   To: jderyke at aol.com <jderyke at aol.com>; lplugw at hotmail.com
>   <lplugw at hotmail.com>; pantera at vtc.net <pantera at vtc.net>;
>   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>   Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 12:08 pm
>   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question
>   How much does running synthetic oil help?  I assume it lubricates
>   better at higher (and maybe lower) temperature, but there is a
>   temperature where bearings start getting soft, something over 300 deg
>   F.
>     __________________________________________________________________
>
>   From: Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>   To: lplugw at hotmail.com; pantera at vtc.net;
>   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 11:25 AM
>   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question
>     Maybe; maybe not. Some owners running oil coolers do not use an oil
>     thermostat. Their success may be due to most of us not really needing
>     an oil cooler at all. I chose to run an oil thermostat on my
>     experimental rig so as to not cool the oil when temperatures or the
>     conditions I'm running do not need extra-cooled oil: eg- slow
>   driving.
>     Note that water cooling oil WILL raise water temps (about 5F while
>     lowering oil temps about 20F); there's only so much total capacity in
>     the car's cooling system. I run a Fluidyne rad with extra cooling
>     capacity & those numbers are what I got.
>     As far as connecting the water cooling lines of an oil-water cooler
>   to
>     the heater fittings on the engine, you'll have to decide if changing
>     the water flow through the cooler to less than half that designed for
>     by the engineers who built it, will work for you: 1-1/2" OD rad'
>   lines
>     vs 5/8" OD heater lines. Again, if it works, that may only prove that
>     the cooler wasn't needed in the first place. In my case it certainly
>     wasn't, but I wanted to see if one would lower oil temps
>   significantly
>     on our mostly street car.
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Larry Weston <[1]lplugw at hotmail.com>
>     To: JFFR <[2]pantera at vtc.net>; [3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>     <[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>     Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 9:43 am
>     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question
>       If the oil cooler was plumbed in series with the cabin heater lines
>     would a thermostat even be necessary? Seems like      an effective
>   way
>     to get cold engine oil up to operating temperature as quickly as
>     possible and allow minimizing of    oil cooler line length at the
>     expense of slightly longer heater hoses.
>
>   __________________________________________________________________
>       From: DeTomaso <[1][5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
>     behalf of
>       JFFR <[2][6]pantera at vtc.net>
>       Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 10:06 AM
>       To: [3][7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>       Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question
>       I have a Laminova oil cooler on the outlet of my radiator and for
>       street
>       use in the desert, it does a pretty good job. When I used the car
>   on
>       our
>       local road course race track, oil temperatures would start getting
>     into
>       the 240 degree area. My car has a front mounted air conditioning
>       condenser, so the area where the original condenser was located was
>       available to install an air to air DeRalle oil cooler with its own
>     fan
>       assembly. Oil temperature is now staying around the 210 to 220
>   degree
>       range when the car is being tracked. My engine has a Titan oil pump
>       which was set up to compensate for the additional oil lines to and
>     from
>       the coolers.
>       Two oil coolers may sound like overkill, but the second oil cooler
>       which
>       is now in the rear of the car was actually very easy to install.
>   The
>       rear cooler fan has a thermostatic switch which doesn't come on
>   until
>       the oil reaches 180 degrees, which in turn doesn't allow the oil to
>     be
>       too cold. High horse power engines generate lots of heat and
>   cooling
>       the
>       oil also helps to keep the water temperature down.
>       _______________________________________________
>       Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>       Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>       DeTomaso mailing list
>       [4][8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>       [1][5][9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>       [2]DeTomaso Info Page
>       server.detomasolist.com
>       This is the DeTomaso mailing list, a free and open forum for the
>       discussion of issues surrounding all DeTomaso automobiles. This is
>   an
>       unmoderated mailing list operated as an independent entity.
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>     References
>       1. [6][10]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>       2. [7][11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>     _______________________________________________
>     Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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>   References
>     1. mailto:[14]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>     2. mailto:[15]pantera at vtc.net
>     3. mailto:[16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>     4. mailto:[17]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>     5. [18]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>     6. [19]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>     7. [20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>     8. mailto:[21]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>     9. [22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>   _______________________________________________
>   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>   DeTomaso mailing list
>   [23]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>   [24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>   use the links above.
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>References
>
>   1. mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
>   2. mailto:pantera at vtc.net
>   3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>   4. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>   5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>   6. mailto:pantera at vtc.net
>   7. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>   8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>   9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>  10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>  11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>  12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>  13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>  14. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>  15. mailto:pantera at vtc.net
>  16. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>  17. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>  18. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>  19. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>  20. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>  21. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>  22. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>  23. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>  24. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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-------------- next part --------------
   I had bad experience with Redline in a Hewland, I kept destroying gears
   at $350/pr, when I had it all apart and in my hands changing out
   gears at the race track an old racer told me to switch oil brands. I
   chose Lucas Gear Oil and haven't lost a gear since.

   Julian
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
   Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
   Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 2:38 PM
   To: jderyke at aol.com; kenn_green at yahoo.com; pantera at vtc.net;
   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question

   I was told by more than one oil company that Organic oils start to
   break
   down about 275F and loose total lubrication at 300 degrees F. Synthetic
   oils do not break down at all until 300F. So if you exceed 275F with
   Dinosaur oil, change it out. I burn^1t down my oil in a ZF in 90 miles
   at a
   165 MPH average run. A drop of oil instantly turned to carbon upon
   contact
   with the external ZF polished case. The ZF Organic oil was dripping off
   the rear back panel of the Pantera at the end of this run. This old
   burnt
   dinosaur oil Smelled really really bad to boot. (now I^1m beginning to
   talk
   like Trump)
   I recommend the RedLine Synthetic if you want to run at the limits, but
   they will tend to leak the synthetic oil over the organic oil types.
   Larry Stock
   On 9/12/18, 2:00 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"
   <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   >   The normal response by oil experts & real racers is, the best
   regular
   >   oil begins to thicken and char at around 290F while Synthetic is
   still
   >   nice 'n slippery up to maybe 310F, in friction testers. As you say,
   the
   >   remaining problem is, even synthetic thins to the consistency of
   cheap
   >   vodka so actual bearing lubrication is spotty even if the oil is
   >   undamaged. The other point is, instrumented engine tests by oil
   >   companies have shown that the temps we're fretting about are oil
   pan
   >   temps while oil-in-loaded-bearing temps are consistently about 30 F
   >   higher! That's dangerous territory even with the best synthetics
   and
   >   why prudent owners of big-power engines that get run wide open at
   SS
   >   events etc, drive their Panteras by the pan oil temps rather than
   flat
   >   out. IMHO, the ultimate oil cooler for such games is a full racing
   dry
   >   sump oiling system.
   >   On an allied subject, in actual tests I ran a decade ago on our
   >   moderate bhp street '72, an instrumented ZF run at 110+ mph for
   'quite
   >   a while' on deserted highways to 'Vegas, took nearly the whole 450
   mile
   >   trip to get to 180F- not quite enough to evaporate condensation.
   But it
   >   also took over 4 hrs to cool back down to a 'Vegas-ambient temp of
   95F
   >   while parked in a covered hotel garage. I've not done it, but SS
   >   runners (93 miles long mostly flat out) tell me after a run over
   140
   >   mph avg, the ZF case is  'hotter than morning coffee' and you are
   >   advised to not touch the case for a loong time! So if an engine oil
   >   cooler is found to be necessary, maybe a ZF cooler like the GT-40s
   used
   >   (two different types) might also be advisable in such Panteras?
   >
   >   Cheers- J DeRyke
   >
   >   -----Original Message-----
   >   From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
   >   To: jderyke at aol.com <jderyke at aol.com>; lplugw at hotmail.com
   >   <lplugw at hotmail.com>; pantera at vtc.net <pantera at vtc.net>;
   >   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   >   Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 12:08 pm
   >   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question
   >   How much does running synthetic oil help?  I assume it lubricates
   >   better at higher (and maybe lower) temperature, but there is a
   >   temperature where bearings start getting soft, something over 300
   deg
   >   F.
   >
   __________________________________________________________________
   >
   >   From: Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   >   To: lplugw at hotmail.com; pantera at vtc.net;
   >   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >   Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 11:25 AM
   >   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question
   >     Maybe; maybe not. Some owners running oil coolers do not use an
   oil
   >     thermostat. Their success may be due to most of us not really
   needing
   >     an oil cooler at all. I chose to run an oil thermostat on my
   >     experimental rig so as to not cool the oil when temperatures or
   the
   >     conditions I'm running do not need extra-cooled oil: eg- slow
   >   driving.
   >     Note that water cooling oil WILL raise water temps (about 5F
   while
   >     lowering oil temps about 20F); there's only so much total
   capacity in
   >     the car's cooling system. I run a Fluidyne rad with extra cooling
   >     capacity & those numbers are what I got.
   >     As far as connecting the water cooling lines of an oil-water
   cooler
   >   to
   >     the heater fittings on the engine, you'll have to decide if
   changing
   >     the water flow through the cooler to less than half that designed
   for
   >     by the engineers who built it, will work for you: 1-1/2" OD rad'
   >   lines
   >     vs 5/8" OD heater lines. Again, if it works, that may only prove
   that
   >     the cooler wasn't needed in the first place. In my case it
   certainly
   >     wasn't, but I wanted to see if one would lower oil temps
   >   significantly
   >     on our mostly street car.
   >     -----Original Message-----
   >     From: Larry Weston <[1]lplugw at hotmail.com>
   >     To: JFFR <[2]pantera at vtc.net>;
   [3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >     <[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   >     Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 9:43 am
   >     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question
   >       If the oil cooler was plumbed in series with the cabin heater
   lines
   >     would a thermostat even be necessary? Seems like      an
   effective
   >   way
   >     to get cold engine oil up to operating temperature as quickly as
   >     possible and allow minimizing of    oil cooler line length at the
   >     expense of slightly longer heater hoses.
   >
   >   __________________________________________________________________
   >       From: DeTomaso <[1][5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>
   on
   >     behalf of
   >       JFFR <[2][6]pantera at vtc.net>
   >       Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 10:06 AM
   >       To: [3][7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >       Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oil cooler question
   >       I have a Laminova oil cooler on the outlet of my radiator and
   for
   >       street
   >       use in the desert, it does a pretty good job. When I used the
   car
   >   on
   >       our
   >       local road course race track, oil temperatures would start
   getting
   >     into
   >       the 240 degree area. My car has a front mounted air
   conditioning
   >       condenser, so the area where the original condenser was located
   was
   >       available to install an air to air DeRalle oil cooler with its
   own
   >     fan
   >       assembly. Oil temperature is now staying around the 210 to 220
   >   degree
   >       range when the car is being tracked. My engine has a Titan oil
   pump
   >       which was set up to compensate for the additional oil lines to
   and
   >     from
   >       the coolers.
   >       Two oil coolers may sound like overkill, but the second oil
   cooler
   >       which
   >       is now in the rear of the car was actually very easy to
   install.
   >   The
   >       rear cooler fan has a thermostatic switch which doesn't come on
   >   until
   >       the oil reaches 180 degrees, which in turn doesn't allow the
   oil to
   >     be
   >       too cold. High horse power engines generate lots of heat and
   >   cooling
   >       the
   >       oil also helps to keep the water temperature down.
   >       _______________________________________________
   >       Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >       Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >       DeTomaso mailing list
   >       [4][8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >
   [1][5][9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >       [2]DeTomaso Info Page
   >       server.detomasolist.com
   >       This is the DeTomaso mailing list, a free and open forum for
   the
   >       discussion of issues surrounding all DeTomaso automobiles. This
   is
   >   an
   >       unmoderated mailing list operated as an independent entity.
   >       To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   >   etc.)
   >       use the links above.
   >       Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
   forward
   >     any
   >       message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
   the
   >       list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   >     archive
   >       or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >     References
   >       1.
   [6][10]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >       2.
   [7][11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >     _______________________________________________
   >     Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >     Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >     DeTomaso mailing list
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   >     To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   >     use the links above.
   >     Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
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   >   any
   >     message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
   the
   >     list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   >   archive
   >     or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >   References
   >     1. mailto:[14]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   >     2. mailto:[15]pantera at vtc.net
   >     3. mailto:[16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >     4. mailto:[17]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >     5. [18]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >     6. [19]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >     7. [20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >     8. mailto:[21]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >     9. [22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >   _______________________________________________
   >   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >   DeTomaso mailing list
   >   [23]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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   >   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   >   use the links above.
   >   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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   >   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   >   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   archive
   >   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >
   >References
   >
   >   1. [1]mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
   >   2. [2]mailto:pantera at vtc.net
   >   3. [3]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >   4. [4]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >   5. [5]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   >   6. [6]mailto:pantera at vtc.net
   >   7. [7]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >   8. [8]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >   9. [9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >  10. [10]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >  11. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >  12. [12]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >  13. [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >  14. [14]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   >  15. [15]mailto:pantera at vtc.net
   >  16. [16]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >  17. [17]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >  18. [18]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >  19. [19]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >  20. [20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >  21. [21]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >  22. [22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >  23. [23]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >  24. [24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >_______________________________________________
   >
   >
   >Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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   >DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >[25]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >
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   use
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   >Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [26]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
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References

   1. mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
   2. mailto:pantera at vtc.net
   3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   4. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   6. mailto:pantera at vtc.net
   7. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  14. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  15. mailto:pantera at vtc.net
  16. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  17. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  18. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  19. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  20. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  21. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  22. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  23. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  24. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  25. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  26. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso


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