[DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location
Forest Goodhart
forestg at att.net
Sat Nov 3 19:54:21 EDT 2018
If you are replying to me you apparently do not know that I do not have a conversion. I still use R12 with an expansion valve (variable orifice just like stock, not an evaporator valve) and it operates at around 185 pounds pressure at the condenser. The fans are controlled by a triac switch that starts the fans at 280 pounds pressure. Once the fans come on the pressure drops and fans shut off. Moving at above 20 plus or minus mph fans shut off and do not come back on unless engine temp calls for fan operation.
Forest
From: Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
To: Forest Goodhart <forestg at att.net>; "detomaso at server.detomasolist.com" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location
I would tend to conclude that your 134 A/C system conversion has not been
properly engineered or was an early conversation. If you have the proper
evaporator valve installed the 134 pressures should be less than your
traditional R-12 pressures. R-12 needs an 8:1 pressure reduction to cool
optimally. IE 240 PSI (16X atmospheric pressure) High side then 30 PSI (2
atmospheres) through the evaporator. The 134 refrigerant needs a 12:1
pressure drop to cool optimally. We use an evaporator valve that drops the
low side pressure into the teens, like 1 atmosphere of pressure 15 PSI so
the high side pressure doesn¹t need to exceed 200 PSI (13X atmosphere)
with also generates less heat to have to after cool in the first place.
This application of physics did not happen initially when the 134 platform
was imposed on us. We initially kept the R-12 evaporator valve and saw
400+ PSI high pressures to get the 134 to run cool. Things didn¹t start
out well for R-134 conversions. Pantera¹s and other European based
vehicles use a fixed orfice evaporator valve system. GM used replaceable
orfice tubes. People could experiment with different size tubes to refine
the efficiency process with R-134 refrigerant. With that we were able too
then refine what fixed based orfice evaporator valves worked best.
Conclusion was Less is best.
Larry
On 11/2/18, 9:49 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Forest Goodhart"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of forestg at att.net>
wrote:
> Scott,
> After a few blown hoses due to over pressure in the stock system I
> installed a high pressure cut off switch to protect hoses and
> compressor. It became obvious that at freeway speeds the cut out was
> working and discharge air temperature would rise. At lower speeds
> cooling was fine. I then moved the condenser location to the front and
> used a parallel flow condenser that mostly covers the whole front of
> the radiator. Cooling has been great since then and as Scott Bell
> noted, I have not noticed any adverse effects on engine cooling. I
> would hesitate to depend on someone who installs receiver/dryers
> backwards for advice.
> Forest
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Scott Mead Photography <scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
> To: 'Larry Stock' <larrys at panteraparts.com>; jderyke at aol.com;
> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
> Location
> Thanks for all the different opinions, guys. It gives me a lot to think
> about.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Stock [mailto:[1]larrys at panteraparts.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 4:35 PM
> To: [2]jderyke at aol.com; [3]scott at scottmeadphotography.com;
> [4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
> Location
> Lets just say that I will disagree,
> I originally thought the same way but then reality set in.
> First the rear condenser was made twice as big as it needed to be
> because
> of all the airflow issues due to its location and a fan and shroud was
> added. Originally Vehicle air Conditioners used York Style Recipercal
> pump
> compressors that create a lot more friction and thus typically have a
> compressed gas temperature of around 400 degrees F. Hence the A/C
> Condenser AKA an After Cooler. When we upgrade to a much more efficient
> rotary compressor, our pressure head temperature is only about 200
> degrees
> F, so our Condenser is now 4X larger than is actually needed. With all
> the
> overheating problems that PanteraA^1s already have, why do we want to
> add
> another heated obstruction in front of our radiators at all. The Dryer
> gets located typically in the rear of the right front wheel well
> totally
> hidden and tough to access. By attaching the Condenser to the Radiator
> it
> now becomes a heat sink to the radiator, and when your warm engine is
> restarted it will blow nothing but hot air until you get underway at
> over
> 35 MPH. You have probably experienced this in your family sedan on a
> hot
> day at the shopping mall, and the whole time you spend removing
> yourself
> from the parking lot with your interior temperature nearing 150 degrees
> sitting out in the sun, you turn on your A/C full blast and get nothing
> but hot air. Not in your Pantera, with the A/C condenser mounted
> remotely
> in the rear, you will get instant Cold Air. What I always tell
> customers,
> if it anA^1t broke, why fix it.
> What we need to be discussing is converting that family sedan to a
> remote
> condenser A/C system like the Pantera so we donA^1t have to sweat
> getting
> out of a parking lot in the afternoon heat.
> Nuff said
> Larry Stock
> On 11/2/18, 2:38 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"
> <[5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
> [6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> > All the answers will likely be estimates, opinions and
> generalizations.
> > So here's my best guess: we know a stock rear-mount A/C setup works
> > around town and at road speeds up to maybe 90 mph. The airflow over,
> > under and around the Pantera creates a huge 'swirl' that plasters
> > itself against the rear bumper. The condenser fan sucks that slight
> > positive pressure inside, thru the condenser and exhausts the hot
> air
> > back against the tub, which directs the flow down toward the road so
> it
> > doesn't form a loop that cycles back thru the condenser a second (or
> > more) time.
> > * Above some speed, the 'swirl' moves further and further back
> behind
> > the car, creating a slight vacuum and starving the rear mount
> condenser
> > for cool air to exchange the A/C condenser's heat. Using wings, rear
> > deck spoilers or a so-called 'boxer slat' may modify the rear
> airflow a
> > little but the 'swirl' will still back away from the car at some
> point.
> > That's when we start blowing A/C hoses from overpressurization,
> since
> > DeTomasos do not have an overpressure switch. They NEED one!
> > * Leaving the tub out causes the hot exhausted air from the
> condenser &
> > its fan to mix with the part of the main undercar airflow that goes
> up
> > and out above the decklid, or with the leading edge of the swirl,
> > reducing efficiency even at low speeds when the occupants are
> getting
> > some cooling.
> > Moving the condenser to the front cures all the above, at any speed
> > attainable. The stock fans must be switched to shrouded sucker fans,
> > and bigger is better. Stock A/C hoses will fit if re-routed but
> custom
> > hoses can shorten them a little, and the dryer can must be relocated
> > somewhere the sight gauge will be visible. A condenser core up front
> > will cause increased heat to enter the engine radiator so a bigger
> > engine rad is a good idea, and laying it down makes the condenser
> fit
> > easier. A thinner, more efficient A/C condenser will fit better,
> too.
> > The top air deflector plate must be modified. One engine radiator
> fan
> > should be rigged such that when the A/C compressor clutch engages,
> the
> > fan behind the front-mount condenser/engine rad comes on
> automatically.
> > All this changes the weight-and-balance of the car (for the good,
> IMHO)
> > to add a little more nose weight; the car may handle a bit different
> > initially. This may be one of those pro-shop-only mods for many,
> since
> > doing a half-a.. job in any of the above areas will result in what
> you
> > have now: an inconsistent A/C system.
> > J DeRyke
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott Mead Photography <[7]scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
> > To: 'De Tomaso List' <[8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> > Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:46
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
> Location
> > Hi Everyone,
> > Since we've been chatting about radiators this last week, I
> thought
> > I'd
> > toss out a different heat exchange question to the masses: What
> are
> > the
> > pros/cons of relocating the AC condenser to the front of the car,
> > which
> > placement is more efficient and is there a difference in longevity
> > comparing one placement to another?
> > Thanks all,
> > Scott
> > SMP-Slogo
> > PO Box 1190
> > Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352
> > T: 626-660-8075
> > E: [1][9]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> > W: www.scottmeadphotography.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [2][10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [3][11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> >References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[12]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> > 2. mailto:[13]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > 3. [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> >Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >DeTomaso mailing list
> >[15]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >[16]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> >To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use
> >the links above.
> >
> >Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> >message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list.
> >They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> >approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [17]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [18]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>References
>
> 1. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
> 2. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
> 3. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 4. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 7. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 8. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 12. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 13. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 16. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 18. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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>http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>the links above.
>
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-------------- next part --------------
If you are replying to me you apparently do not know that I do not have
a conversion. I still use R12 with an expansion valve (variable orifice
just like stock, not an evaporator valve) and it operates at around 185
pounds pressure at the condenser. The fans are controlled by a triac
switch that starts the fans at 280 pounds pressure. Once the fans come
on the pressure drops and fans shut off. Moving at above 20 plus or
minus mph fans shut off and do not come back on unless engine temp
calls for fan operation.
Forest
__________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
To: Forest Goodhart <forestg at att.net>;
"detomaso at server.detomasolist.com" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
Location
I would tend to conclude that your 134 A/C system conversion has not
been
properly engineered or was an early conversation. If you have the
proper
evaporator valve installed the 134 pressures should be less than your
traditional R-12 pressures. R-12 needs an 8:1 pressure reduction to
cool
optimally. IE 240 PSI (16X atmospheric pressure) High side then 30 PSI
(2
atmospheres) through the evaporator. The 134 refrigerant needs a 12:1
pressure drop to cool optimally. We use an evaporator valve that drops
the
low side pressure into the teens, like 1 atmosphere of pressure 15 PSI
so
the high side pressure doesnA^1t need to exceed 200 PSI (13X
atmosphere)
with also generates less heat to have to after cool in the first place.
This application of physics did not happen initially when the 134
platform
was imposed on us. We initially kept the R-12 evaporator valve and saw
400+ PSI high pressures to get the 134 to run cool. Things didnA^1t
start
out well for R-134 conversions. PanteraA^1s and other European based
vehicles use a fixed orfice evaporator valve system. GM used
replaceable
orfice tubes. People could experiment with different size tubes to
refine
the efficiency process with R-134 refrigerant. With that we were able
too
then refine what fixed based orfice evaporator valves worked best.
Conclusion was Less is best.
Larry
On 11/2/18, 9:49 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Forest Goodhart"
<[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[2]forestg at att.net>
wrote:
> Scott,
> After a few blown hoses due to over pressure in the stock system I
> installed a high pressure cut off switch to protect hoses and
> compressor. It became obvious that at freeway speeds the cut out was
> working and discharge air temperature would rise. At lower speeds
> cooling was fine. I then moved the condenser location to the front
and
> used a parallel flow condenser that mostly covers the whole front of
> the radiator. Cooling has been great since then and as Scott Bell
> noted, I have not noticed any adverse effects on engine cooling. I
> would hesitate to depend on someone who installs receiver/dryers
> backwards for advice.
> Forest
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Scott Mead Photography <[3]scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
> To: 'Larry Stock' <[4]larrys at panteraparts.com>; [5]jderyke at aol.com;
> [6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
> Location
> Thanks for all the different opinions, guys. It gives me a lot to
think
> about.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Stock [mailto:[1][7]larrys at panteraparts.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 4:35 PM
> To: [2][8]jderyke at aol.com; [3][9]scott at scottmeadphotography.com;
> [4][10]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
> Location
> Lets just say that I will disagree,
> I originally thought the same way but then reality set in.
> First the rear condenser was made twice as big as it needed to be
> because
> of all the airflow issues due to its location and a fan and shroud
was
> added. Originally Vehicle air Conditioners used York Style
Recipercal
> pump
> compressors that create a lot more friction and thus typically have
a
> compressed gas temperature of around 400 degrees F. Hence the A/C
> Condenser AKA an After Cooler. When we upgrade to a much more
efficient
> rotary compressor, our pressure head temperature is only about 200
> degrees
> F, so our Condenser is now 4X larger than is actually needed. With
all
> the
> overheating problems that PanteraA^1s already have, why do we want
to
> add
> another heated obstruction in front of our radiators at all. The
Dryer
> gets located typically in the rear of the right front wheel well
> totally
> hidden and tough to access. By attaching the Condenser to the
Radiator
> it
> now becomes a heat sink to the radiator, and when your warm engine
is
> restarted it will blow nothing but hot air until you get underway at
> over
> 35 MPH. You have probably experienced this in your family sedan on a
> hot
> day at the shopping mall, and the whole time you spend removing
> yourself
> from the parking lot with your interior temperature nearing 150
degrees
> sitting out in the sun, you turn on your A/C full blast and get
nothing
> but hot air. Not in your Pantera, with the A/C condenser mounted
> remotely
> in the rear, you will get instant Cold Air. What I always tell
> customers,
> if it anA^1t broke, why fix it.
> What we need to be discussing is converting that family sedan to a
> remote
> condenser A/C system like the Pantera so we donA^1t have to sweat
> getting
> out of a parking lot in the afternoon heat.
> Nuff said
> Larry Stock
> On 11/2/18, 2:38 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via
DeTomaso"
> <[5][11]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
> [6][12]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> > All the answers will likely be estimates, opinions and
> generalizations.
> > So here's my best guess: we know a stock rear-mount A/C setup
works
> > around town and at road speeds up to maybe 90 mph. The airflow
over,
> > under and around the Pantera creates a huge 'swirl' that plasters
> > itself against the rear bumper. The condenser fan sucks that
slight
> > positive pressure inside, thru the condenser and exhausts the hot
> air
> > back against the tub, which directs the flow down toward the road
so
> it
> > doesn't form a loop that cycles back thru the condenser a second
(or
> > more) time.
> > * Above some speed, the 'swirl' moves further and further back
> behind
> > the car, creating a slight vacuum and starving the rear mount
> condenser
> > for cool air to exchange the A/C condenser's heat. Using wings,
rear
> > deck spoilers or a so-called 'boxer slat' may modify the rear
> airflow a
> > little but the 'swirl' will still back away from the car at some
> point.
> > That's when we start blowing A/C hoses from overpressurization,
> since
> > DeTomasos do not have an overpressure switch. They NEED one!
> > * Leaving the tub out causes the hot exhausted air from the
> condenser &
> > its fan to mix with the part of the main undercar airflow that
goes
> up
> > and out above the decklid, or with the leading edge of the swirl,
> > reducing efficiency even at low speeds when the occupants are
> getting
> > some cooling.
> > Moving the condenser to the front cures all the above, at any
speed
> > attainable. The stock fans must be switched to shrouded sucker
fans,
> > and bigger is better. Stock A/C hoses will fit if re-routed but
> custom
> > hoses can shorten them a little, and the dryer can must be
relocated
> > somewhere the sight gauge will be visible. A condenser core up
front
> > will cause increased heat to enter the engine radiator so a
bigger
> > engine rad is a good idea, and laying it down makes the condenser
> fit
> > easier. A thinner, more efficient A/C condenser will fit better,
> too.
> > The top air deflector plate must be modified. One engine radiator
> fan
> > should be rigged such that when the A/C compressor clutch
engages,
> the
> > fan behind the front-mount condenser/engine rad comes on
> automatically.
> > All this changes the weight-and-balance of the car (for the good,
> IMHO)
> > to add a little more nose weight; the car may handle a bit
different
> > initially. This may be one of those pro-shop-only mods for many,
> since
> > doing a half-a.. job in any of the above areas will result in
what
> you
> > have now: an inconsistent A/C system.
> > J DeRyke
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott Mead Photography
<[7][13]scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
> > To: 'De Tomaso List' <[8][14]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> > Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:46
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
> Location
> > Hi Everyone,
> > Since we've been chatting about radiators this last week, I
> thought
> > I'd
> > toss out a different heat exchange question to the masses: What
> are
> > the
> > pros/cons of relocating the AC condenser to the front of the
car,
> > which
> > placement is more efficient and is there a difference in
longevity
> > comparing one placement to another?
> > Thanks all,
> > Scott
> > SMP-Slogo
> > PO Box 1190
> > Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352
> > T: 626-660-8075
> > E: [1][9][15]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> > W: www.scottmeadphotography.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [2][10][16]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >
[3][11][17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
> any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> >References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[12][18]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> > 2. mailto:[13][19]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > 3.
[14][20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> >Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >DeTomaso mailing list
> >[15][21]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >[16][22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> >To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use
> >the links above.
> >
> >Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> >message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list.
> >They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> >approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [17][23]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [18][24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>References
>
> 1. mailto:[25]larrys at panteraparts.com
> 2. mailto:[26]jderyke at aol.com
> 3. mailto:[27]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 4. mailto:[28]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5. mailto:[29]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. mailto:[30]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 7. mailto:[31]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 8. mailto:[32]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. mailto:[33]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 10. mailto:[34]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 11. [35]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 12. mailto:[36]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 13. mailto:[37]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 14. [38]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 15. mailto:[39]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 16. [40]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 17. mailto:[41]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 18. [42]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
2. mailto:forestg at att.net
3. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
4. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
5. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
8. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
9. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
10. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
14. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
18. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
19. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
20. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
21. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
22. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
23. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
24. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
25. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
26. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
27. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
28. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
29. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
30. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
31. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
32. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
33. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
34. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
35. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
36. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
37. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
38. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
39. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
40. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
41. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
42. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
43. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
44. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
45. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
46. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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