[DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location
Forest Goodhart
forestg at att.net
Sat Nov 3 00:49:43 EDT 2018
Scott,After a few blown hoses due to over pressure in the stock system I installed a high pressure cut off switch to protect hoses and compressor. It became obvious that at freeway speeds the cut out was working and discharge air temperature would rise. At lower speeds cooling was fine. I then moved the condenser location to the front and used a parallel flow condenser that mostly covers the whole front of the radiator. Cooling has been great since then and as Scott Bell noted, I have not noticed any adverse effects on engine cooling. I would hesitate to depend on someone who installs receiver/dryers backwards for advice.Forest
From: Scott Mead Photography <scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
To: 'Larry Stock' <larrys at panteraparts.com>; jderyke at aol.com; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location
Thanks for all the different opinions, guys. It gives me a lot to think
about.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Stock [mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com]
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 4:35 PM
To: jderyke at aol.com; scott at scottmeadphotography.com;
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location
Lets just say that I will disagree,
I originally thought the same way but then reality set in.
First the rear condenser was made twice as big as it needed to be because
of all the airflow issues due to its location and a fan and shroud was
added. Originally Vehicle air Conditioners used York Style Recipercal pump
compressors that create a lot more friction and thus typically have a
compressed gas temperature of around 400 degrees F. Hence the A/C
Condenser AKA an After Cooler. When we upgrade to a much more efficient
rotary compressor, our pressure head temperature is only about 200 degrees
F, so our Condenser is now 4X larger than is actually needed. With all the
overheating problems that Pantera¹s already have, why do we want to add
another heated obstruction in front of our radiators at all. The Dryer
gets located typically in the rear of the right front wheel well totally
hidden and tough to access. By attaching the Condenser to the Radiator it
now becomes a heat sink to the radiator, and when your warm engine is
restarted it will blow nothing but hot air until you get underway at over
35 MPH. You have probably experienced this in your family sedan on a hot
day at the shopping mall, and the whole time you spend removing yourself
from the parking lot with your interior temperature nearing 150 degrees
sitting out in the sun, you turn on your A/C full blast and get nothing
but hot air. Not in your Pantera, with the A/C condenser mounted remotely
in the rear, you will get instant Cold Air. What I always tell customers,
if it an¹t broke, why fix it.
What we need to be discussing is converting that family sedan to a remote
condenser A/C system like the Pantera so we don¹t have to sweat getting
out of a parking lot in the afternoon heat.
Nuff said
Larry Stock
On 11/2/18, 2:38 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> All the answers will likely be estimates, opinions and generalizations.
> So here's my best guess: we know a stock rear-mount A/C setup works
> around town and at road speeds up to maybe 90 mph. The airflow over,
> under and around the Pantera creates a huge 'swirl' that plasters
> itself against the rear bumper. The condenser fan sucks that slight
> positive pressure inside, thru the condenser and exhausts the hot air
> back against the tub, which directs the flow down toward the road so it
> doesn't form a loop that cycles back thru the condenser a second (or
> more) time.
> * Above some speed, the 'swirl' moves further and further back behind
> the car, creating a slight vacuum and starving the rear mount condenser
> for cool air to exchange the A/C condenser's heat. Using wings, rear
> deck spoilers or a so-called 'boxer slat' may modify the rear airflow a
> little but the 'swirl' will still back away from the car at some point.
> That's when we start blowing A/C hoses from overpressurization, since
> DeTomasos do not have an overpressure switch. They NEED one!
> * Leaving the tub out causes the hot exhausted air from the condenser &
> its fan to mix with the part of the main undercar airflow that goes up
> and out above the decklid, or with the leading edge of the swirl,
> reducing efficiency even at low speeds when the occupants are getting
> some cooling.
> Moving the condenser to the front cures all the above, at any speed
> attainable. The stock fans must be switched to shrouded sucker fans,
> and bigger is better. Stock A/C hoses will fit if re-routed but custom
> hoses can shorten them a little, and the dryer can must be relocated
> somewhere the sight gauge will be visible. A condenser core up front
> will cause increased heat to enter the engine radiator so a bigger
> engine rad is a good idea, and laying it down makes the condenser fit
> easier. A thinner, more efficient A/C condenser will fit better, too.
> The top air deflector plate must be modified. One engine radiator fan
> should be rigged such that when the A/C compressor clutch engages, the
> fan behind the front-mount condenser/engine rad comes on automatically.
> All this changes the weight-and-balance of the car (for the good, IMHO)
> to add a little more nose weight; the car may handle a bit different
> initially. This may be one of those pro-shop-only mods for many, since
> doing a half-a.. job in any of the above areas will result in what you
> have now: an inconsistent A/C system.
> J DeRyke
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Mead Photography <scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
> To: 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:46
> Subject: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location
> Hi Everyone,
> Since we've been chatting about radiators this last week, I thought
> I'd
> toss out a different heat exchange question to the masses: What are
> the
> pros/cons of relocating the AC condenser to the front of the car,
> which
> placement is more efficient and is there a difference in longevity
> comparing one placement to another?
> Thanks all,
> Scott
> SMP-Slogo
> PO Box 1190
> Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352
> T: 626-660-8075
> E: [1]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> W: www.scottmeadphotography.com
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>References
>
> 1. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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>
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-------------- next part --------------
Scott,
After a few blown hoses due to over pressure in the stock system I
installed a high pressure cut off switch to protect hoses and
compressor. It became obvious that at freeway speeds the cut out was
working and discharge air temperature would rise. At lower speeds
cooling was fine. I then moved the condenser location to the front and
used a parallel flow condenser that mostly covers the whole front of
the radiator. Cooling has been great since then and as Scott Bell
noted, I have not noticed any adverse effects on engine cooling. I
would hesitate to depend on someone who installs receiver/dryers
backwards for advice.
Forest
__________________________________________________________________
From: Scott Mead Photography <scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
To: 'Larry Stock' <larrys at panteraparts.com>; jderyke at aol.com;
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
Location
Thanks for all the different opinions, guys. It gives me a lot to think
about.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Stock [mailto:[1]larrys at panteraparts.com]
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 4:35 PM
To: [2]jderyke at aol.com; [3]scott at scottmeadphotography.com;
[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
Location
Lets just say that I will disagree,
I originally thought the same way but then reality set in.
First the rear condenser was made twice as big as it needed to be
because
of all the airflow issues due to its location and a fan and shroud was
added. Originally Vehicle air Conditioners used York Style Recipercal
pump
compressors that create a lot more friction and thus typically have a
compressed gas temperature of around 400 degrees F. Hence the A/C
Condenser AKA an After Cooler. When we upgrade to a much more efficient
rotary compressor, our pressure head temperature is only about 200
degrees
F, so our Condenser is now 4X larger than is actually needed. With all
the
overheating problems that PanteraA^1s already have, why do we want to
add
another heated obstruction in front of our radiators at all. The Dryer
gets located typically in the rear of the right front wheel well
totally
hidden and tough to access. By attaching the Condenser to the Radiator
it
now becomes a heat sink to the radiator, and when your warm engine is
restarted it will blow nothing but hot air until you get underway at
over
35 MPH. You have probably experienced this in your family sedan on a
hot
day at the shopping mall, and the whole time you spend removing
yourself
from the parking lot with your interior temperature nearing 150 degrees
sitting out in the sun, you turn on your A/C full blast and get nothing
but hot air. Not in your Pantera, with the A/C condenser mounted
remotely
in the rear, you will get instant Cold Air. What I always tell
customers,
if it anA^1t broke, why fix it.
What we need to be discussing is converting that family sedan to a
remote
condenser A/C system like the Pantera so we donA^1t have to sweat
getting
out of a parking lot in the afternoon heat.
Nuff said
Larry Stock
On 11/2/18, 2:38 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"
<[5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> All the answers will likely be estimates, opinions and
generalizations.
> So here's my best guess: we know a stock rear-mount A/C setup works
> around town and at road speeds up to maybe 90 mph. The airflow over,
> under and around the Pantera creates a huge 'swirl' that plasters
> itself against the rear bumper. The condenser fan sucks that slight
> positive pressure inside, thru the condenser and exhausts the hot
air
> back against the tub, which directs the flow down toward the road so
it
> doesn't form a loop that cycles back thru the condenser a second (or
> more) time.
> * Above some speed, the 'swirl' moves further and further back
behind
> the car, creating a slight vacuum and starving the rear mount
condenser
> for cool air to exchange the A/C condenser's heat. Using wings, rear
> deck spoilers or a so-called 'boxer slat' may modify the rear
airflow a
> little but the 'swirl' will still back away from the car at some
point.
> That's when we start blowing A/C hoses from overpressurization,
since
> DeTomasos do not have an overpressure switch. They NEED one!
> * Leaving the tub out causes the hot exhausted air from the
condenser &
> its fan to mix with the part of the main undercar airflow that goes
up
> and out above the decklid, or with the leading edge of the swirl,
> reducing efficiency even at low speeds when the occupants are
getting
> some cooling.
> Moving the condenser to the front cures all the above, at any speed
> attainable. The stock fans must be switched to shrouded sucker fans,
> and bigger is better. Stock A/C hoses will fit if re-routed but
custom
> hoses can shorten them a little, and the dryer can must be relocated
> somewhere the sight gauge will be visible. A condenser core up front
> will cause increased heat to enter the engine radiator so a bigger
> engine rad is a good idea, and laying it down makes the condenser
fit
> easier. A thinner, more efficient A/C condenser will fit better,
too.
> The top air deflector plate must be modified. One engine radiator
fan
> should be rigged such that when the A/C compressor clutch engages,
the
> fan behind the front-mount condenser/engine rad comes on
automatically.
> All this changes the weight-and-balance of the car (for the good,
IMHO)
> to add a little more nose weight; the car may handle a bit different
> initially. This may be one of those pro-shop-only mods for many,
since
> doing a half-a.. job in any of the above areas will result in what
you
> have now: an inconsistent A/C system.
> J DeRyke
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Mead Photography <[7]scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
> To: 'De Tomaso List' <[8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:46
> Subject: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
Location
> Hi Everyone,
> Since we've been chatting about radiators this last week, I
thought
> I'd
> toss out a different heat exchange question to the masses: What
are
> the
> pros/cons of relocating the AC condenser to the front of the car,
> which
> placement is more efficient and is there a difference in longevity
> comparing one placement to another?
> Thanks all,
> Scott
> SMP-Slogo
> PO Box 1190
> Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352
> T: 626-660-8075
> E: [1][9]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> W: www.scottmeadphotography.com
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [2][10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [3][11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>References
>
> 1. mailto:[12]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
> 2. mailto:[13]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>DeTomaso mailing list
>[15]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>[16]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use
>the links above.
>
>Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
>They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>approve the archiving of list messages.
_______________________________________________
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
2. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
3. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
4. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
8. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
12. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
13. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
15. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
16. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
17. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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