[DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location

billmoore6480 billmoore6480 at gmail.com
Fri Nov 2 20:47:35 EDT 2018


Like button.....Ford engineers did go to school.Bill Moore 403-860-4300Calgary, Alberta
-------- Original message --------From: Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com> Date: 2018-11-02  4:35 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: jderyke at aol.com, scott at scottmeadphotography.com, detomaso at server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location Lets just say that I will disagree,I originally thought the same way but then reality set in.First the rear condenser was made twice as big as it needed to be becauseof all the airflow issues due to its location and a fan and shroud wasadded. Originally Vehicle air Conditioners used York Style Recipercal pumpcompressors that create a lot more friction and thus typically have acompressed gas temperature of around 400 degrees F. Hence the A/CCondenser AKA an After Cooler. When we upgrade to a much more efficientrotary compressor, our pressure head temperature is only about 200 degreesF, so our Condenser is now 4X larger than is actually needed. With all theoverheating problems that Pantera¹s already have, why do we want to addanother heated obstruction in front of our radiators at all. The Dryergets located typically in the rear of the right front wheel well totallyhidden and tough to access. By attaching the Condenser to the Radiator itnow becomes a heat sink to the radiator, and when your warm engine isrestarted it will blow nothing but hot air until you get underway at over35 MPH. You have probably experienced this in your family sedan on a hotday at the shopping mall, and the whole time you spend removing yourselffrom the parking lot with your interior temperature nearing 150 degreessitting out in the sun, you turn on your A/C full blast and get nothingbut hot air. Not in your Pantera, with the A/C condenser mounted remotelyin the rear, you will get instant Cold Air. What I always tell customers,if it an¹t broke, why fix it.What we need to be discussing is converting that family sedan to a remotecondenser A/C system like the Pantera so we don¹t have to sweat gettingout of a parking lot in the afternoon heat.Nuff saidLarry StockOn 11/2/18, 2:38 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf ofdetomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:>   All the answers will likely be estimates, opinions and generalizations.>   So here's my best guess: we know a stock rear-mount A/C setup works>   around town and at road speeds up to maybe 90 mph. The airflow over,>   under and around the Pantera creates a huge 'swirl' that plasters>   itself against the rear bumper. The condenser fan sucks that slight>   positive pressure inside, thru the condenser and exhausts the hot air>   back against the tub, which directs the flow down toward the road so it>   doesn't form a loop that cycles back thru the condenser a second (or>   more) time.>   * Above some speed, the 'swirl' moves further and further back behind>   the car, creating a slight vacuum and starving the rear mount condenser>   for cool air to exchange the A/C condenser's heat. Using wings, rear>   deck spoilers or a so-called 'boxer slat' may modify the rear airflow a>   little but the 'swirl' will still back away from the car at some point.>   That's when we start blowing A/C hoses from overpressurization, since>   DeTomasos do not have an overpressure switch. They NEED one!>   * Leaving the tub out causes the hot exhausted air from the condenser &>   its fan to mix with the part of the main undercar airflow that goes up>   and out above the decklid, or with the leading edge of the swirl,>   reducing efficiency even at low speeds when the occupants are getting>   some cooling.>   Moving the condenser to the front cures all the above, at any speed>   attainable. The stock fans must be switched to shrouded sucker fans,>   and bigger is better. Stock A/C hoses will fit if re-routed but custom>   hoses can shorten them a little, and the dryer can must be relocated>   somewhere the sight gauge will be visible. A condenser core up front>   will cause increased heat to enter the engine radiator so a bigger>   engine rad is a good idea, and laying it down makes the condenser fit>   easier. A thinner, more efficient A/C condenser will fit better, too.>   The top air deflector plate must be modified. One engine radiator fan>   should be rigged such that when the A/C compressor clutch engages, the>   fan behind the front-mount condenser/engine rad comes on automatically.>   All this changes the weight-and-balance of the car (for the good, IMHO)>   to add a little more nose weight; the car may handle a bit different>   initially. This may be one of those pro-shop-only mods for many, since>   doing a half-a.. job in any of the above areas will result in what you>   have now: an inconsistent A/C system.>   J DeRyke>>   -----Original Message----->   From: Scott Mead Photography <scott at scottmeadphotography.com>>   To: 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>>   Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:46>   Subject: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear Location>     Hi Everyone,>     Since we've been chatting about radiators this last week, I thought>   I'd>     toss out a different heat exchange question to the masses: What are>   the>     pros/cons of relocating the AC condenser to the front of the car,>   which>     placement is more efficient and is there a difference in longevity>     comparing one placement to another?>     Thanks all,>     Scott>     SMP-Slogo>     PO Box 1190>     Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352>     T: 626-660-8075>     E: [1]scott at scottmeadphotography.com>     W: www.scottmeadphotography.com>   _______________________________________________>   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA>   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes>   DeTomaso mailing list>   [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>   [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)>   use the links above.>   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any>   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the>   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive>   or approve the archiving of list messages.>>References>>   1. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com>   2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>   3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>_______________________________________________>>>Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA>Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes>DeTomaso mailing list>DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>>To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use>the links above.>>Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any>message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.>They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or>approve the archiving of list messages._______________________________________________Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCAPosted emails must not exceed 1.5 MegabytesDeTomaso mailing listDeTomaso at server.detomasolist.comhttp://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomasoTo manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
   Like button.....

   Ford engineers did go to school.

   Bill Moore

   403-860-4300

   Calgary, Alberta

   -------- Original message --------
   From: Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
   Date: 2018-11-02 4:35 PM (GMT-07:00)
   To: jderyke at aol.com, scott at scottmeadphotography.com,
   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
   Location

   Lets just say that I will disagree,
   I originally thought the same way but then reality set in.
   First the rear condenser was made twice as big as it needed to be
   because
   of all the airflow issues due to its location and a fan and shroud was
   added. Originally Vehicle air Conditioners used York Style Recipercal
   pump
   compressors that create a lot more friction and thus typically have a
   compressed gas temperature of around 400 degrees F. Hence the A/C
   Condenser AKA an After Cooler. When we upgrade to a much more efficient
   rotary compressor, our pressure head temperature is only about 200
   degrees
   F, so our Condenser is now 4X larger than is actually needed. With all
   the
   overheating problems that Pantera^1s already have, why do we want to
   add
   another heated obstruction in front of our radiators at all. The Dryer
   gets located typically in the rear of the right front wheel well
   totally
   hidden and tough to access. By attaching the Condenser to the Radiator
   it
   now becomes a heat sink to the radiator, and when your warm engine is
   restarted it will blow nothing but hot air until you get underway at
   over
   35 MPH. You have probably experienced this in your family sedan on a
   hot
   day at the shopping mall, and the whole time you spend removing
   yourself
   from the parking lot with your interior temperature nearing 150 degrees
   sitting out in the sun, you turn on your A/C full blast and get nothing
   but hot air. Not in your Pantera, with the A/C condenser mounted
   remotely
   in the rear, you will get instant Cold Air. What I always tell
   customers,
   if it an^1t broke, why fix it.
   What we need to be discussing is converting that family sedan to a
   remote
   condenser A/C system like the Pantera so we don^1t have to sweat
   getting
   out of a parking lot in the afternoon heat.
   Nuff said
   Larry Stock
   On 11/2/18, 2:38 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"
   <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   >   All the answers will likely be estimates, opinions and
   generalizations.
   >   So here's my best guess: we know a stock rear-mount A/C setup works
   >   around town and at road speeds up to maybe 90 mph. The airflow
   over,
   >   under and around the Pantera creates a huge 'swirl' that plasters
   >   itself against the rear bumper. The condenser fan sucks that slight
   >   positive pressure inside, thru the condenser and exhausts the hot
   air
   >   back against the tub, which directs the flow down toward the road
   so it
   >   doesn't form a loop that cycles back thru the condenser a second
   (or
   >   more) time.
   >   * Above some speed, the 'swirl' moves further and further back
   behind
   >   the car, creating a slight vacuum and starving the rear mount
   condenser
   >   for cool air to exchange the A/C condenser's heat. Using wings,
   rear
   >   deck spoilers or a so-called 'boxer slat' may modify the rear
   airflow a
   >   little but the 'swirl' will still back away from the car at some
   point.
   >   That's when we start blowing A/C hoses from overpressurization,
   since
   >   DeTomasos do not have an overpressure switch. They NEED one!
   >   * Leaving the tub out causes the hot exhausted air from the
   condenser &
   >   its fan to mix with the part of the main undercar airflow that goes
   up
   >   and out above the decklid, or with the leading edge of the swirl,
   >   reducing efficiency even at low speeds when the occupants are
   getting
   >   some cooling.
   >   Moving the condenser to the front cures all the above, at any speed
   >   attainable. The stock fans must be switched to shrouded sucker
   fans,
   >   and bigger is better. Stock A/C hoses will fit if re-routed but
   custom
   >   hoses can shorten them a little, and the dryer can must be
   relocated
   >   somewhere the sight gauge will be visible. A condenser core up
   front
   >   will cause increased heat to enter the engine radiator so a bigger
   >   engine rad is a good idea, and laying it down makes the condenser
   fit
   >   easier. A thinner, more efficient A/C condenser will fit better,
   too.
   >   The top air deflector plate must be modified. One engine radiator
   fan
   >   should be rigged such that when the A/C compressor clutch engages,
   the
   >   fan behind the front-mount condenser/engine rad comes on
   automatically.
   >   All this changes the weight-and-balance of the car (for the good,
   IMHO)
   >   to add a little more nose weight; the car may handle a bit
   different
   >   initially. This may be one of those pro-shop-only mods for many,
   since
   >   doing a half-a.. job in any of the above areas will result in what
   you
   >   have now: an inconsistent A/C system.
   >   J DeRyke
   >
   >   -----Original Message-----
   >   From: Scott Mead Photography <scott at scottmeadphotography.com>
   >   To: 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   >   Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:46
   >   Subject: [DeTomaso] AC Condenser: Front Mount vs. Stock Rear
   Location
   >     Hi Everyone,
   >     Since we've been chatting about radiators this last week, I
   thought
   >   I'd
   >     toss out a different heat exchange question to the masses: What
   are
   >   the
   >     pros/cons of relocating the AC condenser to the front of the car,
   >   which
   >     placement is more efficient and is there a difference in
   longevity
   >     comparing one placement to another?
   >     Thanks all,
   >     Scott
   >     SMP-Slogo
   >     PO Box 1190
   >     Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352
   >     T: 626-660-8075
   >     E: [1]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
   >     W: www.scottmeadphotography.com
   >   _______________________________________________
   >   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >   DeTomaso mailing list
   >   [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >   [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   >   use the links above.
   >   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any
   >   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   >   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   archive
   >   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >
   >References
   >
   >   1. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
   >   2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >   3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >_______________________________________________
   >
   >
   >Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >DeTomaso mailing list
   >DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >
   >To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use
   >the links above.
   >
   >Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   >message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list.
   >They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
   >approve the archiving of list messages.
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.


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