[DeTomaso] Vacuum source on IR manifolds
Ed Mendez
edducati at mac.com
Sat May 26 21:08:56 EDT 2018
Mine is a 393 cubic inch and I have 50# injectors. You may want to consider 65# because it is important to run them at 75% duty cycle at WOT, you always want a little more than less so you don’t go lean. MAP sensors are
FAST 307007 MAP Sensor 1-Bar GM Style <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l5919/7?euid=ddeaf5d619914480a9e71e0106e46c80&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fpayments.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewPaymentStatus%26transId%3D1112787585014%26itemId%3D331384506290%26qu%3D1%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A5919&exe=11488&ext=28494&sojTags=exe=exe,ext=ext>
Will email you my tune.
> On May 26, 2018, at 17:08, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net <mailto:npdrs at maui.net>> wrote:
>
> Hi Ad,
>
> Really great info, thanks a lot!
> I am saving all the emails you sent; it is really like installation manual; will help a lot!
> Glad to hear I can get good idle without IAC; makes installation simpler.
> Seems I am going for almost same setup as yours accept that I got no distributor, just cam sync; flying magnets for crank trigger.
> Ignition will be 8 IGN 1a smart coils run by Xmi module.
>
> Bar reference sensor makes lots of sense for me; where I drive there will often be 1000m altitude changes on same run; I suppose Xfi compensates fo this also during driving, not only on start-up.
> Will use auxiliary input to hook it up; I guess V+ and ground can be shared with MAP sensor so if I mount them next to each other I can simply jump them together and just run extra aux. signal wire.
> I suppose you used same sensor as for MAP?
>
> What did you use for the starting tune; was wondering if I might be able to use yours as a starting point as it seems configuration would be very close?
> My motor is 416ci and injectors I got are Bosch 47lb (this is rated at 39psi).
>
> Cheers, Robert
>
>
> On May 26, 2018, at 6:08 AM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com <mailto:edducati at mac.com>> wrote:
>
>> Manifold Absolute Pressure is connector C20 on the main harness. Baro sensor you connect to one of the auxiliary inputs. Calibration parameters for addition of dedicated Baro pressure sensor on AAUX3. With dedicated remote Baro sensor, supports live corrections of engine load and table indexing in load indexed speed density mode for changing barometric pressure (altitude changes).
>>
>> Now the XFI has two types of speed density
>>
>> 1. speed density
>> 2. load indexed speed density
>>
>> Speed density uses the engine vac and RPM
>>
>> Load indexed speed density uses engine vac, baro and RPM to determine load.
>>
>> Speed density will somewhat change in the vac units with the baro reading outside
>>
>> Load Indexed will compare the baro to vac on startup every time you key on.
>>
>> Load indexed will help with the tune when the humidity changes because the baro will also change.
>>
>> Outside air temp you have things like the air temp sensor correction to help with that, also timing vs air temp.
>>
>> Coolant temp you have several coolant temp corrections
>>
>> accel enrichments based on coolant temp
>>
>> There is a target A/F closed loop table that is able to correct +25% and -25% so even with just that when the weather changes the actual A/F can be brought back to the target with the O2 in closed loop. The small corrections for temp, cold start ect are the hard to do and time consuming part of the tuning process.
>>
>> I run mine in Load Indexed Speed Density Mode.
>>
>> IAC needs a dedicated vacuum source because it opens and closes as the engine warms up. It would play havoc on the MAP sensor.
>>
>> Me I do not run one, you don’t need to as the idle circuit can be tuned as the temperature rises with the fuel, air and timing control.
>>
>> Ed Mendez
>> edducati at mac.com <mailto:edducati at mac.com>
>> info at forzadetomaso.com <mailto:info at forzadetomaso.com>
>> www.forzadetomaso.com <http://www.forzadetomaso.com/>
>>
>> Director Forza DeTomaso. LLC
>>
>>
>> <Final 1 small.jpg>
>>
>>> On May 26, 2018, at 03:23, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net <mailto:npdrs at maui.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Ed,
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot, great info!
>>> Wondering how did you connect two MAP sensors; my Xfi has only connection for one?
>>> Did not see in software provision for second sensor?
>>> I have another connector for MAP on XMI harness, but I think this is only for stand-alone operation, just COP ignition without Xfi.
>>> I seen Holly uses built in reference sensor; that seems really nice way to get the altitude reference.
>>>
>>> Good to hear it is possible to share plenum between brakes and MAP....I guess once you are on the brakes perfect vacuum signal is not so critical.
>>>
>>> Why would it be not possible to connect IAC to same plenum?
>>> I thought IAC would only influence vacuum at idle; is that a problem?
>>>
>>> All the best, Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 25, 2018, at 7:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com <mailto:edducati at mac.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here is a picture of mine. I have a line going to each runner then all to one small common block for brakes and MAP. I am running indexed speed density mode on my FAST XFI 2.0, I have have two MAP sensors one for manifold absolute pressure and one for barometric pressure, it takes a reading form both and adjusts for elevation. I am not running an IAC because as the article states below you would have to have two lines plumbed to each port.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a section from a forum when I was doing research.
>>>>
>>>> ======
>>>> Perhaps add a vacuum reservoir to act as a "shock absorber" and give a more even MAP reading, go speed density for the tune. For the map signal, you need a vacuum feed from each port, tied into a common "metering block" and then to the map sensor. You cannot take a vacuum signal from a single port, needs to be from all of them. You also don't want to share that vacuum source with the iac or anything else. They make nice remote mount iac's, but again they need their own separate lines to each port. Think of something like a port-injected nitrous system with the stainless hard lines going to each port in the intake and tieing together in a billet aluminum block. On mine, there were two lines to each port hidden underneath the manifold just like a hidden nitrous kit. Then after the block where they came together we put two bulkhead fittings in the rear of the intake (one for iac and one for map) so there was a connection from the top of the intake. Totally hidden, very clean looking and works perfect.
>>>>
>>>> Using a SMALL plenum for the vacuum is a requirement - not an option - otherwise you have nowhere to take the MAP reading. There is very very little vacuum signal from these types of intakes. I would advise you to use the plenum for ONLY the MAP signal. I was trying to remember - but think I could only get 4 or 5 inches of vacuum reading at my plenum. The pulse signal is soooooo weak without having a large common plenum of the dual plane / single plane intake....
>>>>
>>>> To help tune the idle circuit -- in the efi maps -- you make smaller incremental
>>>> grids in the idle vacuum and rpm map.... then you can tune out the lumps easier with finer control... and also using the idle spark add or subtract.
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, a guy that's GOOD with these ECU EFI systems can make anything/combo run like a swiss watch.
>>>>
>>>> I just finished helping a buddy with his 8 stack (Imagine Injection) install - using Fast XFI on his 454 big block. It started the FIRST TIME - in about 3 rev's - once I tweaked the distributor timing to actually match the ECU - it purred... and there's nothing like the sound of air being gulped one cylinder at a time.
>>>> ======
>>>>
>>>> In reading this however, I have the single lines to each port “the black lines in the picture” I have them going to a tiny plenum and have my brakes and MAP going to it and have no issues at all.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose this depends oil if you have a huge cam or not, in that case Don Byars makes this bitchin vacuum pump setup the for brakes that fits underneath and in front of the radiator.
>>>>
>>>> Ed<DSC_0244.jpeg>
>>>>> On May 25, 2018, at 22:28, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net <mailto:npdrs at maui.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, I am in process of installing IR fuel injection, using Fast Xfi 2.0.
>>>>> Would like to hear from someone running similar setup how did you plumb vacuum source manifold.
>>>>> Was planning to use just one common manifold (connected to all 8 runners) and then connect servo brake tube, MAP sensor and vacuum regulated fuel pressure regulator all to that manifold.
>>>>> Would that work fine or will signal from MAP get wrong readings when breaking (booster maybe reducing vacuum)?
>>>>> If this is fine, is there some rule on how to size this manifold?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Robert
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>>>>
>>>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
Mine is a 393 cubic inch and I have 50# injectors. You may want to
consider 65# because it is important to run them at 75% duty cycle at
WOT, you always want a little more than less so you don't go lean. MAP
sensors are
[1]FAST 307007 MAP Sensor 1-Bar GM Style
FAST 307007 MAP Sensor 1-Bar GM Style Universal Each Will email you my
tune.
On May 26, 2018, at 17:08, Robert Stroj <[2]npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
Hi Ad,
Really great info, thanks a lot!
I am saving all the emails you sent; it is really like installation
manual; will help a lot!
Glad to hear I can get good idle without IAC; makes installation
simpler.
Seems I am going for almost same setup as yours accept that I got no
distributor, just cam sync; flying magnets for crank trigger.
Ignition will be 8 IGN 1a smart coils run by Xmi module.
Bar reference sensor makes lots of sense for me; where I drive there
will often be 1000m altitude changes on same run; I suppose Xfi
compensates fo this also during driving, not only on start-up.
Will use auxiliary input to hook it up; I guess V+ and ground can be
shared with MAP sensor so if I mount them next to each other I can
simply jump them together and just run extra aux. signal wire.
I suppose you used same sensor as for MAP?
What did you use for the starting tune; was wondering if I might be
able to use yours as a starting point as it seems configuration would
be very close?
My motor is 416ci and injectors I got are Bosch 47lb (this is rated at
39psi).
Cheers, Robert
On May 26, 2018, at 6:08 AM, Ed Mendez <[3]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Manifold Absolute Pressure is connector C20 on the main harness. Baro
sensor you connect to one of the auxiliary inputs. Calibration
parameters for addition of dedicated Baro pressure sensor on
AAUX3. With dedicated remote Baro sensor, supports live corrections of
engine load and table indexing in load indexed speed density mode for
changing barometric pressure (altitude changes).
Now the XFI has two types of speed density
1. speed density
2. load indexed speed density
Speed density uses the engine vac and RPM
Load indexed speed density uses engine vac, baro and RPM to determine
load.
Speed density will somewhat change in the vac units with the baro
reading outside
Load Indexed will compare the baro to vac on startup every time you key
on.
Load indexed will help with the tune when the humidity changes because
the baro will also change.
Outside air temp you have things like the air temp sensor correction to
help with that, also timing vs air temp.
Coolant temp you have several coolant temp corrections
accel enrichments based on coolant temp
There is a target A/F closed loop table that is able to correct +25%
and -25% so even with just that when the weather changes the actual A/F
can be brought back to the target with the O2 in closed loop. The small
corrections for temp, cold start ect are the hard to do and time
consuming part of the tuning process.
I run mine in Load Indexed Speed Density Mode.
IAC needs a dedicated vacuum source because it opens and closes as the
engine warms up. It would play havoc on the MAP sensor.
Me I do not run one, you don't need to as the idle circuit can be tuned
as the temperature rises with the fuel, air and timing control.
Ed Mendez
[4]edducati at mac.com
[5]info at forzadetomaso.com
[6]www.forzadetomaso.com
Director Forza DeTomaso. LLC
<Final 1 small.jpg>
On May 26, 2018, at 03:23, Robert Stroj <[7]npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
Hi Ed,
Thanks a lot, great info!
Wondering how did you connect two MAP sensors; my Xfi has only
connection for one?
Did not see in software provision for second sensor?
I have another connector for MAP on XMI harness, but I think this is
only for stand-alone operation, just COP ignition without Xfi.
I seen Holly uses built in reference sensor; that seems really nice way
to get the altitude reference.
Good to hear it is possible to share plenum between brakes and MAP....I
guess once you are on the brakes perfect vacuum signal is not so
critical.
Why would it be not possible to connect IAC to same plenum?
I thought IAC would only influence vacuum at idle; is that a problem?
All the best, Robert
On May 25, 2018, at 7:58 PM, Ed Mendez <[8]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Here is a picture of mine. I have a line going to each runner then all
to one small common block for brakes and MAP. I am running indexed
speed density mode on my FAST XFI 2.0, I have have two MAP sensors one
for manifold absolute pressure and one for barometric pressure, it
takes a reading form both and adjusts for elevation. I am not running
an IAC because as the article states below you would have to have two
lines plumbed to each port.
Here is a section from a forum when I was doing research.
======
Perhaps add a vacuum reservoir to act as a "shock absorber" and give a
more even MAP reading, go speed density for the tune. For the map
signal, you need a vacuum feed from each port, tied into a common
"metering block" and then to the map sensor. You cannot take a vacuum
signal from a single port, needs to be from all of them. You also don't
want to share that vacuum source with the iac or anything else. They
make nice remote mount iac's, but again they need their own separate
lines to each port. Think of something like a port-injected nitrous
system with the stainless hard lines going to each port in the intake
and tieing together in a billet aluminum block. On mine, there were two
lines to each port hidden underneath the manifold just like a hidden
nitrous kit. Then after the block where they came together we put two
bulkhead fittings in the rear of the intake (one for iac and one for
map) so there was a connection from the top of the intake. Totally
hidden, very clean looking and works perfect.
Using a SMALL plenum for the vacuum is a requirement - not an option -
otherwise you have nowhere to take the MAP reading. There is very very
little vacuum signal from these types of intakes. I would advise you to
use the plenum for ONLY the MAP signal. I was trying to remember - but
think I could only get 4 or 5 inches of vacuum reading at my plenum.
The pulse signal is soooooo weak without having a large common plenum
of the dual plane / single plane intake....
To help tune the idle circuit -- in the efi maps -- you make smaller
incremental
grids in the idle vacuum and rpm map.... then you can tune out the
lumps easier with finer control... and also using the idle spark add or
subtract.
IMHO, a guy that's GOOD with these ECU EFI systems can make
anything/combo run like a swiss watch.
I just finished helping a buddy with his 8 stack (Imagine Injection)
install - using Fast XFI on his 454 big block. It started the FIRST
TIME - in about 3 rev's - once I tweaked the distributor timing to
actually match the ECU - it purred... and there's nothing like the
sound of air being gulped one cylinder at a time.
======
In reading this however, I have the single lines to each port "the
black lines in the picture" I have them going to a tiny plenum and have
my brakes and MAP going to it and have no issues at all.
I suppose this depends oil if you have a huge cam or not, in that case
Don Byars makes this bitchin vacuum pump setup the for brakes that fits
underneath and in front of the radiator.
Ed<DSC_0244.jpeg>
On May 25, 2018, at 22:28, Robert Stroj <[9]npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
Hi, I am in process of installing IR fuel injection, using Fast Xfi
2.0.
Would like to hear from someone running similar setup how did you plumb
vacuum source manifold.
Was planning to use just one common manifold (connected to all 8
runners) and then connect servo brake tube, MAP sensor and vacuum
regulated fuel pressure regulator all to that manifold.
Would that work fine or will signal from MAP get wrong readings when
breaking (booster maybe reducing vacuum)?
If this is fine, is there some rule on how to size this manifold?
Thanks, Robert
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References
1. http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l5919/7?euid=ddeaf5d619914480a9e71e0106e46c80&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fpayments.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewPaymentStatus%26transId%3D1112787585014%26itemId%3D331384506290%26qu%3D1%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A5919&exe=11488&ext=28494&sojTags=exe=exe,ext=ext
2. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
3. mailto:edducati at mac.com
4. mailto:edducati at mac.com
5. mailto:info at forzadetomaso.com
6. http://www.forzadetomaso.com/
7. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
8. mailto:edducati at mac.com
9. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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