[DeTomaso] Shift Happens - Broken Motor Mount Bolt
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Tue May 15 11:59:27 EDT 2018
Is McMaster still a good source? Some of their stuff comes from Taiwan, but I thought that was OK?
Ken
From: Larry-Ohio Time Corp <Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
To: 'Larry Stock' <larrys at panteraparts.com>; 'Mike Drew' <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shift Happens - Broken Motor Mount Bolt
Fasteners are no longer made in NE Ohio (mom and dad worked at National
Screw during the War) so one must be carful where you get replacements
from. I have had problems with "big box" store bolts snapping when torque
to spec.
Fasteners in key locations should be sourced from quality suppliers.
Larry (nuts) - Cleveland
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf
Of Larry Stock
Sent: May 14, 2018 11:38 PM
To: Mike Drew
Cc: De Tomaso List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shift Happens - Broken Motor Mount Bolt
Mike not to bore everyone with a bunch of engineering specifications for
each comparative bolt design, you all can read about all these details
here at
http://tinelok.com/grade-5-vs-grade-8-fasteners/
The conclusion basically sums it up;
Getting back to the original question, “which fastener grade should I
use?” We hope it’s very clear by now that grade 8 fasteners are far
superior to grade 5 fasteners. If this is so, then why do the automotive
manufacturers use some grade 5 fasteners? The automotive OEM’s use what it
needs to be safe and nothing more since there is a difference in cost
between grade 5 and grade 8 (or metric 8.8 and 10.9). Since the OEM’s
manufacture millions of vehicles each year, the difference in a few cents
per fastener adds up to a lot for them.
Larry Stock
On 5/14/18, 7:37 PM, "Mike Drew" <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>Larry,
>
>Grade 8 bolts are stronger in tension and weaker in shear. They are more
>brittle, and they break when Grade 5 bolts bend.
>
>The fix is to use Grade 5 bolts―as originally installed (for a reason).
>The engine subjects the bolts to shear loading and Grade 8 bolts will
>snap when Grade 5 bolts distort. A distorted bolt is still doing its job
>after a broken bolt isn’t! (Thats also why A-arm bolts are Grade 5
>instead of Grade 8).
>
>There are lots of other applications where Grade 8 bolts are appropriate.
> It depends on the nature of the job they are being asked to do. But
>neither Grade 5 or 8 bolts are ‘better’. They are instead ‘different’.
>
>The Ford engineer guys are no dummies.
>
>Scott―you should be able to support the engine from below (or suspend it
>from above), then unbolt the bottom half of the engine mount, remove the
>through bolt, and withdraw it. Then you can remove the other upper mount
>bolt (hope it isn’t broken too) then remove the upper mount. Then you can
>determine if you can extract the broken bolt with an EZ-out. Frame rails
>might make access difficult, so you may have to unbolt the other side
>mount and raise it up with a hoist to get better access.
>
>If the bolt is broken off inside the block and the EZ-out doesn’t work,
>you may need to take the block to a shop that can do EDM, Electro
>Discharge Machining, and have it zapped out. Or perhaps a machinist can
>extract it for you. Dismantling the engine might be part of either of
>those operations however....
>
>Mike
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>> On May 14, 2018, at 11:04, Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote:
>>
>> There should be 2 bolts Scott, so I assume you sheared the other one
>>also.
>> Since you so good with that camera, shoot me a photo of the other side
>>as
>> well, I¹d like to see what the bolt heads indicate what grade of bolts
>>you
>> had in there. Factory came with grade 5, and after Radial tires were
>> invented and installed the true nature of the difference of a monocoque
>>vs
>> Unibody became evident with the shearing of the grade 5 bolts with the
>> engine being engineered as stressed member of the chassis. The fix has
>> been to use grade 8 or higher to keep that engine as a stressed member
>> brace of the chassis design. More Grip, more stress.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> On 5/14/18, 10:47 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Scott Mead Photography"
>> <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
>> scott at scottmeadphotography.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Everyone -
>>>
>>>
>>> I was under the car this weekend, diagnosing my paperweight of an A/C
>>> system, when I noticed something a little unnerving: The right-front
>>> motor mount bolt had sheared off in the block, and the motor had
>>> shifted. With the hole in the motor mount no longer lining up with bolt
>>> remnants, there's no way I can "easy out" the bolt. Aside from pulling
>>> the engine/ZF, can I take out the other bolt, loosen the bolts on the
>>> other side and (using a block of wood under the oil pan), jack the
>>> engine up a bit to re-align or remove the motor mount to extract the
>>> bolt? Are there any other options I haven't thought of?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott (caretaker of 5638)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> SMP-Slogo
>>>
>>> PO Box 1190
>>>
>>> Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352
>>>
>>> T: 626-660-8075
>>>
>>> E: scott at scottmeadphotography.com
>>>
>>> W: www.scottmeadphotography.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
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>>>use
>>> the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>>>list.
>>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>>> approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>>use the links above.
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>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>>They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>>approve the archiving of list messages.
>
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-------------- next part --------------
Is McMaster still a good source? Some of their stuff comes from
Taiwan, but I thought that was OK?
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Larry-Ohio Time Corp <Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
To: 'Larry Stock' <larrys at panteraparts.com>; 'Mike Drew'
<MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shift Happens - Broken Motor Mount Bolt
Fasteners are no longer made in NE Ohio (mom and dad worked at National
Screw during the War) so one must be carful where you get replacements
from. I have had problems with "big box" store bolts snapping when
torque
to spec.
Fasteners in key locations should be sourced from quality suppliers.
Larry (nuts) - Cleveland
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
Behalf
Of Larry Stock
Sent: May 14, 2018 11:38 PM
To: Mike Drew
Cc: De Tomaso List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shift Happens - Broken Motor Mount Bolt
Mike not to bore everyone with a bunch of engineering specifications
for
each comparative bolt design, you all can read about all these details
here at
[2]http://tinelok.com/grade-5-vs-grade-8-fasteners/
The conclusion basically sums it up;
Getting back to the original question, awhich fastener grade should I
use?a We hope itas very clear by now that grade 8 fasteners are far
superior to grade 5 fasteners. If this is so, then why do the
automotive
manufacturers use some grade 5 fasteners? The automotive OEMas use what
it
needs to be safe and nothing more since there is a difference in cost
between grade 5 and grade 8 (or metric 8.8 and 10.9). Since the OEMas
manufacture millions of vehicles each year, the difference in a few
cents
per fastener adds up to a lot for them.
Larry Stock
On 5/14/18, 7:37 PM, "Mike Drew" <[3]MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>Larry,
>
>Grade 8 bolts are stronger in tension and weaker in shear. They are
more
>brittle, and they break when Grade 5 bolts bend.
>
>The fix is to use Grade 5 boltsaas originally installed (for a
reason).
>The engine subjects the bolts to shear loading and Grade 8 bolts will
>snap when Grade 5 bolts distort. A distorted bolt is still doing its
job
>after a broken bolt isnat! (Thats also why A-arm bolts are Grade 5
>instead of Grade 8).
>
>There are lots of other applications where Grade 8 bolts are
appropriate.
> It depends on the nature of the job they are being asked to do. But
>neither Grade 5 or 8 bolts are abettera. They are instead adifferenta.
>
>The Ford engineer guys are no dummies.
>
>Scottayou should be able to support the engine from below (or suspend
it
>from above), then unbolt the bottom half of the engine mount, remove
the
>through bolt, and withdraw it. Then you can remove the other upper
mount
>bolt (hope it isnat broken too) then remove the upper mount. Then you
can
>determine if you can extract the broken bolt with an EZ-out. Frame
rails
>might make access difficult, so you may have to unbolt the other side
>mount and raise it up with a hoist to get better access.
>
>If the bolt is broken off inside the block and the EZ-out doesnat
work,
>you may need to take the block to a shop that can do EDM, Electro
>Discharge Machining, and have it zapped out. Or perhaps a machinist
can
>extract it for you. Dismantling the engine might be part of either of
>those operations however....
>
>Mike
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>> On May 14, 2018, at 11:04, Larry Stock <[4]larrys at panteraparts.com>
wrote:
>>
>> There should be 2 bolts Scott, so I assume you sheared the other one
>>also.
>> Since you so good with that camera, shoot me a photo of the other
side
>>as
>> well, IA^1d like to see what the bolt heads indicate what grade of
bolts
>>you
>> had in there. Factory came with grade 5, and after Radial tires were
>> invented and installed the true nature of the difference of a
monocoque
>>vs
>> Unibody became evident with the shearing of the grade 5 bolts with
the
>> engine being engineered as stressed member of the chassis. The fix
has
>> been to use grade 8 or higher to keep that engine as a stressed
member
>> brace of the chassis design. More Grip, more stress.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> On 5/14/18, 10:47 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Scott Mead Photography"
>> <[5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
>> [6]scott at scottmeadphotography.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Everyone -
>>>
>>>
>>> I was under the car this weekend, diagnosing my paperweight of an
A/C
>>> system, when I noticed something a little unnerving: The
right-front
>>> motor mount bolt had sheared off in the block, and the motor had
>>> shifted. With the hole in the motor mount no longer lining up with
bolt
>>> remnants, there's no way I can "easy out" the bolt. Aside from
pulling
>>> the engine/ZF, can I take out the other bolt, loosen the bolts on
the
>>> other side and (using a block of wood under the oil pan), jack the
>>> engine up a bit to re-align or remove the motor mount to extract
the
>>> bolt? Are there any other options I haven't thought of?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott (caretaker of 5638)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> SMP-Slogo
>>>
>>> PO Box 1190
>>>
>>> Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352
>>>
>>> T: 626-660-8075
>>>
>>> E: [7]scott at scottmeadphotography.com
>>>
>>> W: www.scottmeadphotography.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> [9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
>>>use
>>> the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>>>list.
>>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>>> approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
>>use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
>>message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
>>They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>>approve the archiving of list messages.
>
_______________________________________________
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use
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list.
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the archiving of list messages.
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References
1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
2. http://tinelok.com/grade-5-vs-grade-8-fasteners/
3. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
4. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
7. mailto:scott at scottmeadphotography.com
8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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