[DeTomaso] Values of cars
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 9 11:40:07 EST 2018
I'm not sure all inspectors are equally qualified to inspect a Pantera, and I don't think most inspectors help buyers to get an idea of what they may want to upgrade. It seems like many if not most Pantera owners end up making changes they didn't originally plan (is that a sickness?). I suppose the buyer could get a shop involved before the purchase.
Ken
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>; Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: Detomaso Email List <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
What you describe sounds exactly like a PPI (Pre-Purchase Inspection)
or condition appraisal, from there it is purely a case of what a
prospective owner is willing to pay and the seller willing to let it go
for.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Ken Green via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:41 PM
To: Mike Drew
Cc: Detomaso Email List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
Thinking out of the box ...
I bought a Pantera in 75 and sold it a couple years later, and avoided
Panteras for years because of rust. Now I accept dealing with rust is
just an added cost when buying a Pantera. I cringe when I see a car
described as a rust free barn find in a warehouse in Florida next to
the ocean. Maybe it's possible for a car to sit in salt air for 30
years and not rust, but I suspect more often, the paint is holding the
body together. There is another myth about "California cars" where a
lot of Panteras lived next to the beach.
I agree that score based on the car's originality does not make sense
for most Panteras. However, a qualified appraiser should be able to
give an opinion on potential rust issues. The quality of the paint is
even easier, and the cost of repainting. The suitability of the wheels
for modern tires is simple. The ZF is a big issue as is the engine.
Recommended upgrades and cost estimates would also be useful.
Maybe a questionnaire completed by a potential buyer describing what
they want and what they like. Then a given car can be appraised to
determine if the purchase makes sense. I suspect many buyers would
decide to spend more up front when the recognize the cost of making a
Pantera into their dream car.
I just threw this together as a example. I'm sure others can come up
with more appropriate categories. My point is that there should be
some objective way to put a price on a given car, and maybe even factor
in the subjective goals of a buyer.
Ken
From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: Detomaso Email List <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
Ken,
To put it mildly, you're dreaming!
You are comparing apples to oranges. Corvette restorers RESTORE
Corvettes. Pantera shops call what they do `restoration' but I can
think of fewer than a handful of Panteras that have ever been
PROPERLY
restored in the traditional sense. Pantera shops instead choose to
modify cars and call it restoration, which is totally ridiculous.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing to modify a Pantera, but it's
laughable
to then claim that you have restored it.
I visited Jim Demick in New Mexico yesterday. In his den (on the
second
floor of the beautiful home he built himself with his own two hands)
is
a fully restored, perfectly detailed 1971 Pantera engine, with every
original detail--every tag, stamp, hose, wire etc being completely
original, and restored to Pebble Beach standards. It would be nice if
there was that level of respect for at least some of our cars, but
unlike the Corvette gang, few seem to have it.
To be fair, we had just been ripping around at 130 mph in his 1971
Pantera that has a 600 hp 408 stroker. And undoubtedly that is way
more
fun than creeping around slowly in a bone stock Pantera with one eye
on
the water temp gauge all the time.
We then went for a drive in his bone stock, 100% numbers matching
concours `65 Corvette coupe. We drove slowly on side roads to avoid
the freeway. That was a lot of fun too, in a different way.
Apples and oranges....
image1.jpeg
image2.jpeg
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:55, Ken Green <[1]kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
Has anyone proposed establishing a rating system for Panteras, and
have
a certification process for appraisers? I was watching the crazy
high
prices of Corvettes at one of the auctions. It seems like the Vette
folks have a very organized rating system, and once a car has been
rated, a buyer knows what they are getting. I don't expect to see
typical Panteras selling for $300K, but when the owner spends $100K +
on a high quality restoration, it seems like they never recover the
investment. That also hurts the shops because people are less will
to
spend $s on their cars when it doesn't increase the value very much.
If the vendors and POCA got together and created something, I think
it
would have a big benefit.
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Julian Kift <[2]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: "[3]gt40 at sbcglobal.net" <[4]gt40 at sbcglobal.net>; Mike Drew
<[5]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: Ken Green <[6]kenn_green at yahoo.com>; Detomaso Email List
<[7]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
You can narrow down results with a check box on the left side
for 'completed items' or 'sold items', the former will include sold
listings and what non-sold cars were bid to, the distinction is
those sold have the price in bold green. The caveat with eBay is that
there are no penalties for winning and not following through with the
purchase, so you'll often see the same car sold a number of times
at different prices as yahoo's bid on anything for the shear fun of
it.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf
of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 6:48 PM
To: [10]gt40 at sbcglobal.net
Cc: Ken Green; Detomaso Email List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
John,
If the car sells on eBay the final sale price will be shown. I think
the auction disappears after 90 days.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 7, 2018, at 19:43, <[11]gt40 at sbcglobal.net>
<[12]gt40 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Re: Ebay, I see many P's for sale there, but is there are way to
see
what they actually sold for? Or are my techie skills so low that I'm
missing how to find that info out? (highly likely!)
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> John
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Ken Green via DeTomaso
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:56 PM
> To: Detomaso Email List
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
>
> Was watching an auction (or looking at cars on ebay) and with the
resolution of the images, how can you ever tell the value of the
cars?
It seems pretty clear that there is a huge difference between a car
that looks good from 10 feet, and one that is nearly perfect, and had
a
lot of money spent to reach that level. I can imagine a professional
appraiser taking that into account, but seems hard for the average
buyer. I think some of the other marques have developed standards?
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
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References
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2. [2]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
3. [3]mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
4. [4]mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
5. [5]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
6. [6]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
7. [7]mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
8. [8]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
9. [9]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. [10]mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
11. [11]mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
12. [12]mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
13. [13]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
14. [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
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2. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
3. mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
4. mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
5. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
6. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
7. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
8. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
11. mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
12. mailto:gt40 at sbcglobal.net
13. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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-------------- next part --------------
I'm not sure all inspectors are equally qualified to inspect a Pantera,
and I don't think most inspectors help buyers to get an idea of what
they may want to upgrade. It seems like many if not most Pantera
owners end up making changes they didn't originally plan (is that a
sickness?). I suppose the buyer could get a shop involved before the
purchase.
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>; Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: Detomaso Email List <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
What you describe sounds exactly like a PPI (Pre-Purchase Inspection)
or condition appraisal, from there it is purely a case of what a
prospective owner is willing to pay and the seller willing to let it
go
for.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
Ken Green via DeTomaso <[2]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:41 PM
To: Mike Drew
Cc: Detomaso Email List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
Thinking out of the box ...
I bought a Pantera in 75 and sold it a couple years later, and
avoided
Panteras for years because of rust. Now I accept dealing with rust
is
just an added cost when buying a Pantera. I cringe when I see a car
described as a rust free barn find in a warehouse in Florida next to
the ocean. Maybe it's possible for a car to sit in salt air for 30
years and not rust, but I suspect more often, the paint is holding
the
body together. There is another myth about "California cars" where
a
lot of Panteras lived next to the beach.
I agree that score based on the car's originality does not make sense
for most Panteras. However, a qualified appraiser should be able to
give an opinion on potential rust issues. The quality of the paint
is
even easier, and the cost of repainting. The suitability of the
wheels
for modern tires is simple. The ZF is a big issue as is the engine.
Recommended upgrades and cost estimates would also be useful.
Maybe a questionnaire completed by a potential buyer describing what
they want and what they like. Then a given car can be appraised to
determine if the purchase makes sense. I suspect many buyers would
decide to spend more up front when the recognize the cost of making a
Pantera into their dream car.
I just threw this together as a example. I'm sure others can come up
with more appropriate categories. My point is that there should be
some objective way to put a price on a given car, and maybe even
factor
in the subjective goals of a buyer.
Ken
From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<[3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
To: Ken Green <[4]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: Detomaso Email List <[5]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
Ken,
To put it mildly, you're dreaming!
You are comparing apples to oranges. Corvette restorers RESTORE
Corvettes. Pantera shops call what they do `restoration' but I can
think of fewer than a handful of Panteras that have ever been
PROPERLY
restored in the traditional sense. Pantera shops instead choose to
modify cars and call it restoration, which is totally ridiculous.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing to modify a Pantera, but it's
laughable
to then claim that you have restored it.
I visited Jim Demick in New Mexico yesterday. In his den (on the
second
floor of the beautiful home he built himself with his own two
hands)
is
a fully restored, perfectly detailed 1971 Pantera engine, with
every
original detail--every tag, stamp, hose, wire etc being completely
original, and restored to Pebble Beach standards. It would be nice
if
there was that level of respect for at least some of our cars, but
unlike the Corvette gang, few seem to have it.
To be fair, we had just been ripping around at 130 mph in his 1971
Pantera that has a 600 hp 408 stroker. And undoubtedly that is way
more
fun than creeping around slowly in a bone stock Pantera with one
eye
on
the water temp gauge all the time.
We then went for a drive in his bone stock, 100% numbers matching
concours `65 Corvette coupe. We drove slowly on side roads to
avoid
the freeway. That was a lot of fun too, in a different way.
Apples and oranges....
image1.jpeg
image2.jpeg
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:55, Ken Green <[1][6]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Has anyone proposed establishing a rating system for Panteras, and
have
a certification process for appraisers? I was watching the crazy
high
prices of Corvettes at one of the auctions. It seems like the
Vette
folks have a very organized rating system, and once a car has been
rated, a buyer knows what they are getting. I don't expect to see
typical Panteras selling for $300K, but when the owner spends $100K
+
on a high quality restoration, it seems like they never recover the
investment. That also hurts the shops because people are less will
to
spend $s on their cars when it doesn't increase the value very
much.
If the vendors and POCA got together and created something, I think
it
would have a big benefit.
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Julian Kift <[2][7]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: "[3][8]gt40 at sbcglobal.net" <[4][9]gt40 at sbcglobal.net>; Mike
Drew
<[5][10]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: Ken Green <[6][11]kenn_green at yahoo.com>; Detomaso Email List
<[7][12]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
You can narrow down results with a check box on the left side
for 'completed items' or 'sold items', the former will include sold
listings and what non-sold cars were bid to, the distinction is
those sold have the price in bold green. The caveat with eBay is
that
there are no penalties for winning and not following through with
the
purchase, so you'll often see the same car sold a number of times
at different prices as yahoo's bid on anything for the shear fun of
it.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[8][13]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf
of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9][14]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 6:48 PM
To: [10][15]gt40 at sbcglobal.net
Cc: Ken Green; Detomaso Email List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
John,
If the car sells on eBay the final sale price will be shown. I
think
the auction disappears after 90 days.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 7, 2018, at 19:43, <[11][16]gt40 at sbcglobal.net>
<[12][17]gt40 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Re: Ebay, I see many P's for sale there, but is there are way to
see
what they actually sold for? Or are my techie skills so low that
I'm
missing how to find that info out? (highly likely!)
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> John
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Ken Green via DeTomaso
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:56 PM
> To: Detomaso Email List
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
>
> Was watching an auction (or looking at cars on ebay) and with the
resolution of the images, how can you ever tell the value of the
cars?
It seems pretty clear that there is a huge difference between a car
that looks good from 10 feet, and one that is nearly perfect, and
had
a
lot of money spent to reach that level. I can imagine a
professional
appraiser taking that into account, but seems hard for the average
buyer. I think some of the other marques have developed
standards?
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
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This is the DeTomaso mailing list, a free and open forum for the
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unmoderated mailing list ...
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use the links above.
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> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
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or approve the archiving of list messages.
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>
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References
1. [1]mailto:[24]kenn_green at yahoo.com
2. [2]mailto:[25]julian_kift at hotmail.com
3. [3]mailto:[26]gt40 at sbcglobal.net
4. [4]mailto:[27]gt40 at sbcglobal.net
5. [5]mailto:[28]MikeLDrew at aol.com
6. [6]mailto:[29]kenn_green at yahoo.com
7. [7]mailto:[30]detomaso at detomasolist.com
8. [8]mailto:[31]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
9. [9]mailto:[32]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. [10]mailto:[33]gt40 at sbcglobal.net
11. [11]mailto:[34]gt40 at sbcglobal.net
12. [12]mailto:[35]gt40 at sbcglobal.net
13. [13]mailto:[36]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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