[DeTomaso] Values of cars
cengles at cox.net
cengles at cox.net
Fri Mar 9 09:05:20 EST 2018
Dear Mike,
You wrote:
" Sadly, I honestly don’t believe there is a man alive qualified to
render expert judgement with respect to originality in all areas on a
Pantera. Unlike other marques, ours is unique in that originality was
never valued and modifications were prevalent even when the cars were
new (between Ford efforts and owner hot-rodding). The innumerable design
changes as the cars were being built means that the trivial details
literally changed week to week on the assembly line. Thus it’s
impossible to state with certainty all the details that would be ‘right’
for a specific car.
One would think Pantera vendors would have a better handle on
this than most, but they never cared about it one bit. They couldn’t
wait to rip off all the original stuff and load them up with their
aftermarket parts. I doubt even Gary Hall would have been able to act
as a true arbiter of what is ‘right’ for a particular car, and that is
really saying something.
There have only been a handful of time warp cars saved.
Steve Wilkinson bought three GT5-S cars brand new, and
mothballed one of them after a short period of driving it. He is now
reconditioning it for sale, and working hard to return it to original.
Even he had to struggle a bit though, as he had started modifying it
right away when he first bought it. He phoned me asking for help with
the original air cleaner. He still had it, but couldn’t figure out how
it was installed (the later cars had a very strange configuration). I
was able to find original period magazine articles and scan engine bay
photos which revealed what he needed to know...."
$$$$$$$$ That is a very accurate observation and commentary
about Panteras, specifically, and DeTomaso in general.
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 1:07 AM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso wrote:
> All,
>
> You are giving me far too much credit!
>
> Sadly, I honestly don’t believe there is a man alive qualified to
> render expert judgement with respect to originality in all areas on a
> Pantera. Unlike other marques, ours is unique in that originality was
> never valued and modifications were prevalent even when the cars were
> new (between Ford efforts and owner hot-rodding). The innumerable
> design changes as the cars were being built means that the trivial
> details literally changed week to week on the assembly line. Thus it’s
> impossible to state with certainty all the details that would be
> ‘right’ for a specific car.
> One would think Pantera vendors would have a better handle on this
> than most, but they never cared about it one bit. They couldn’t wait
> to rip off all the original stuff and load them up with their
> aftermarket parts. I doubt even Gary Hall would have been able to act
> as a true arbiter of what is ‘right’ for a particular car, and that is
> really saying something.
>
> There have only been a handful of time warp cars saved. A few years
> ago Fred Phillips bought a 700-mile L model from the original owner;
> that owner originally took possession even before dealer prep was
> done so it had a number of details that even first owners never got to
> see, including stickers on all the turn signals, etc.
> Sadly, he sold it just a few weeks later before I got a chance to fly
> up to see it. Even worse, he sold it to a compulsive hoarder who
> inherited billions and bought something like 1000+ cars in the space
> of just a year or two. The Pantera was just lost in the shuffle, and
> lies jammed in a warehouse door handle to door handle with 999+ other
> equally special cars.
> The only saving grace is that eventually it will reappear, although it
> might be 30-40 years before its seen again......
>
> Steve Wilkinson bought three GT5-S cars brand new, and mothballed one
> of them after a short period of driving it. He is now reconditioning
> it for sale, and working hard to return it to original. Even he had to
> struggle a bit though, as he had started modifying it right away when
> he first bought it. He phoned me asking for help with the original air
> cleaner. He still had it, but couldn’t figure out how it was installed
> (the later cars had a very strange configuration). I was able to find
> original period magazine articles and scan engine bay photos which
> revealed what he needed to know....
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 18:50, Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. <byrdjf at embarqmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I think a book that documents the original details would be of
>> interest to others than just me.
>> Besides just photos, there would need to be a narrative.
>> Like, I would LOVE to see multiple photo's of Jim Demick's engine,
>> but without a Mike Drew commentary, I wouldn't know what I was
>> looking for
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Drew via DeTomaso
>> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 12:57 PM
>> To: Ken Green
>> Cc: Detomaso Email List
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
>>
>> Ken,
>>
>> To put it mildly, you’re dreaming!
>>
>> You are comparing apples to oranges. Corvette restorers RESTORE
>> Corvettes. Pantera shops call what they do ‘restoration’ but I can
>> think of fewer than a handful of Panteras that have ever been
>> PROPERLY restored in the traditional sense. Pantera shops instead
>> choose to modify cars and call it restoration, which is totally
>> ridiculous.
>> I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to modify a Pantera, but it’s
>> laughable to then claim that you have restored it.
>> I visited Jim Demick in New Mexico yesterday. In his den (on the
>> second floor of the beautiful home he built himself with his own two
>> hands) is a fully restored, perfectly detailed 1971 Pantera engine,
>> with every original detail—every tag, stamp, hose, wire etc being
>> completely original, and restored to Pebble Beach standards. It would
>> be nice if there was that level of respect for at least some of our
>> cars, but unlike the Corvette gang, few seem to have it.
>> To be fair, we had just been ripping around at 130 mph in his 1971
>> Pantera that has a 600 hp 408 stroker. And undoubtedly that is way
>> more fun than creeping around slowly in a bone stock Pantera with one
>> eye on the water temp gauge all the time.
>> We then went for a drive in his bone stock, 100% numbers matching
>> concours ‘65 Corvette coupe. We drove slowly on side roads to avoid
>> the freeway. That was a lot of fun too, in a different way.
>>
>> Apples and oranges....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:55, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Has anyone proposed establishing a rating system for Panteras, and
>>> have a certification process for appraisers? I was watching the
>>> crazy high prices of Corvettes at one of the auctions. It seems
>>> like the Vette folks have a very organized rating system, and once a
>>> car has been rated, a buyer knows what they are getting. I don't
>>> expect to see typical Panteras selling for $300K, but when the owner
>>> spends $100K + on a high quality restoration, it seems like they
>>> never recover the investment. That also hurts the shops because
>>> people are less will to spend $s on their cars when it doesn't
>>> increase the value very much. If the vendors and POCA got together
>>> and created something, I think it would have a big benefit.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
>> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
>> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
>> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Dear Mike,
You wrote:
" Sadly, I honestly donat believe there is a man alive qualified to
render expert judgement with respect to originality in all areas on a
Pantera. Unlike other marques, ours is unique in that originality was
never valued and modifications were prevalent even when the cars were
new (between Ford efforts and owner hot-rodding). The innumerable
design changes as the cars were being built means that the trivial
details literally changed week to week on the assembly line. Thus itas
impossible to state with certainty all the details that would be
arighta for a specific car.
One would think Pantera vendors would have a better handle on
this than most, but they never cared about it one bit. They couldnat
wait to rip off all the original stuff and load them up with their
aftermarket parts. I doubt even Gary Hall would have been able to act
as a true arbiter of what is arighta for a particular car, and that is
really saying something.
There have only been a handful of time warp cars saved.
Steve Wilkinson bought three GT5-S cars brand new, and
mothballed one of them after a short period of driving it. He is now
reconditioning it for sale, and working hard to return it to original.
Even he had to struggle a bit though, as he had started modifying it
right away when he first bought it. He phoned me asking for help with
the original air cleaner. He still had it, but couldnat figure out how
it was installed (the later cars had a very strange configuration). I
was able to find original period magazine articles and scan engine bay
photos which revealed what he needed to know...."
$$$$$$$$ That is a very accurate observation and commentary
about Panteras, specifically, and DeTomaso in general.
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 1:07 AM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso wrote:
> All,
>
> You are giving me far too much credit!
>
> Sadly, I honestly donat believe there is a man alive qualified to
render expert judgement with respect to originality in all areas on a
Pantera. Unlike other marques, ours is unique in that originality was
never valued and modifications were prevalent even when the cars were
new (between Ford efforts and owner hot-rodding). The innumerable
design changes as the cars were being built means that the trivial
details literally changed week to week on the assembly line. Thus itas
impossible to state with certainty all the details that would be
arighta for a specific car.
>
> One would think Pantera vendors would have a better handle on this
than most, but they never cared about it one bit. They couldnat wait to
rip off all the original stuff and load them up with their aftermarket
parts. I doubt even Gary Hall would have been able to act as a true
arbiter of what is arighta for a particular car, and that is really
saying something.
>
> There have only been a handful of time warp cars saved. A few years
ago Fred Phillips bought a 700-mile L model from the original owner;
that owner originally took possession even before dealer prep was done
so it had a number of details that even first owners never got to see,
including stickers on all the turn signals, etc.
>
> Sadly, he sold it just a few weeks later before I got a chance to fly
up to see it. Even worse, he sold it to a compulsive hoarder who
inherited billions and bought something like 1000+ cars in the space of
just a year or two. The Pantera was just lost in the shuffle, and lies
jammed in a warehouse door handle to door handle with 999+ other
equally special cars.
>
> The only saving grace is that eventually it will reappear, although
it might be 30-40 years before its seen again......
>
> Steve Wilkinson bought three GT5-S cars brand new, and mothballed one
of them after a short period of driving it. He is now reconditioning it
for sale, and working hard to return it to original. Even he had to
struggle a bit though, as he had started modifying it right away when
he first bought it. He phoned me asking for help with the original air
cleaner. He still had it, but couldnat figure out how it was installed
(the later cars had a very strange configuration). I was able to find
original period magazine articles and scan engine bay photos which
revealed what he needed to know....
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Mar 8, 2018, at 18:50, Joseph F. Byrd, Jr.
<byrdjf at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think a book that documents the original details would be of
interest to others than just me.
> > Besides just photos, there would need to be a narrative.
> > Like, I would LOVE to see multiple photo's of Jim Demick's engine,
but without a Mike Drew commentary, I wouldn't know what I was looking
for
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
Behalf Of Mike Drew via DeTomaso
> > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 12:57 PM
> > To: Ken Green
> > Cc: Detomaso Email List
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Values of cars
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > To put it mildly, youare dreaming!
> >
> > You are comparing apples to oranges. Corvette restorers RESTORE
Corvettes. Pantera shops call what they do arestorationa but I can
think of fewer than a handful of Panteras that have ever been PROPERLY
restored in the traditional sense. Pantera shops instead choose to
modify cars and call it restoration, which is totally ridiculous.
> >
> > Iam not saying itas a bad thing to modify a Pantera, but itas
laughable to then claim that you have restored it.
> >
> > I visited Jim Demick in New Mexico yesterday. In his den (on the
second floor of the beautiful home he built himself with his own two
hands) is a fully restored, perfectly detailed 1971 Pantera engine,
with every original detailaevery tag, stamp, hose, wire etc being
completely original, and restored to Pebble Beach standards. It would
be nice if there was that level of respect for at least some of our
cars, but unlike the Corvette gang, few seem to have it.
> >
> > To be fair, we had just been ripping around at 130 mph in his 1971
Pantera that has a 600 hp 408 stroker. And undoubtedly that is way more
fun than creeping around slowly in a bone stock Pantera with one eye on
the water temp gauge all the time.
> >
> > We then went for a drive in his bone stock, 100% numbers matching
concours a65 Corvette coupe. We drove slowly on side roads to avoid
the freeway. That was a lot of fun too, in a different way.
> >
> > Apples and oranges....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:55, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Has anyone proposed establishing a rating system for Panteras, and
have a certification process for appraisers? I was watching the crazy
high prices of Corvettes at one of the auctions. It seems like the
Vette folks have a very organized rating system, and once a car has
been rated, a buyer knows what they are getting. I don't expect to see
typical Panteras selling for $300K, but when the owner spends $100K +
on a high quality restoration, it seems like they never recover the
investment. That also hurts the shops because people are less will to
spend $s on their cars when it doesn't increase the value very much.
If the vendors and POCA got together and created something, I think it
would have a big benefit.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list