[DeTomaso] Spinning wheel stud
Jeff Kimball
jgkrenton at comcast.net
Tue Jul 17 21:17:58 EDT 2018
Sean:
More fuel to the fire!
If you are getting almost half an inch of nut/stud interface but only the end of the stud is damaged, (.0250 ish??) then over torque of the threads seems unlikely. I believe over-torque should affect the portion of the stud closest to the wheel end of the nut as that is the part of the stud that should stretch the most. The portion of the stud deep in the nut would be less likely to stretch/deform and damage the threads.
So.... It's beginning to sound like the nuts were initially cross-threaded which damaged the threads on the end of the stud, but then the nut mated properly after a few turns? Could be induced by using an impact driver to install the nuts? What do the threads inside the nut look like?
Glad you didn't lose a wheel!
I have to get back to changing my cam.....
Jeff/2467
> On July 17, 2018 at 11:45 AM sean mundy <seanmundy at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> The picture is misleading because the damaged threads you see are on the very end of the stud. That is not where the lug nut ends up when tightened all the way. I re-measured the depths and I have .496 lug engagement and the stud width is .482. It seems I don't have the preferred 1.5 times size differential. I am able to turn the lug nut 360deg from start to tight 8.5 times. I haven't lost a wheel in 14 yrs so maybe I just got lucky. I will get longer studs since I have to get new ones anyway. Thanks Jeff!
>
>
> From: Jeff Kimball mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 7:07 AM
> To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com , sean mundy mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com , larry at ohiotimecorp.com mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>
>
> Sean:
>
>
> At the risk of starting another conflagration, from looking at the photos, I'd suspect the stock studs are too short for the Kodiak wheels. All the damage shown on the stud seems to be on the last 1/4 inch or so. This seems to indicate inadequate depth of insertion of the stud into the lug nut. When the torque was applied this resulted in the threads on the stud and nut deforming due to the limited interface being inadequate to support the load. When you tried to take them off, the deformed threads wouldn't turn and the stud and lug nut "became one".
>
>
> I don't have any specs handy, but I seem to recall that the stud/nut interface is supposed to be something like twice the diameter of the stud or something like that.
>
>
> In an over-torque condition, a proper stud/nut interface should result in the stud breaking off before the threads fail.
>
>
> Anti-seize is always a good idea.
>
>
> Since you are going to tear the thing apart, you might investigate this a bit more and make sure you have the correct stud length for those wheels.
>
>
> And as usual, "your experience may vary!".
>
>
> Jeff/2467
>
>
> > > On July 16, 2018 at 5:26 PM sean mundy wrote:
> >
> >
> > I tried all the suggestions with no luck. The jack idea did put pressure on the wheel but I was nervous to really apply a lot of force. I’ve already screwed up enough. I just drilled out the stud and was able to get the last lug nut off and remove the wheel.
> > Only took about 10min using three different drill bit sizes.
> > Now the hard part begins taking the rest of the hub apart. And spending $$$
> >
> > From: sean mundy
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:57 PM
> > To: detomaso at server.detomasolist mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist .com, larry at ohiotimecorp.com mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >
> > You are using the jack between the bottom of the wheels and pushing them against each other??
> >
> >
> >
> > From: larry at ohiotimecorp.com mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:33 PM
> > To: detomaso at server.detomasolist mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist .com
> >
> > I'm with Jeff on this one. Pressure baby pressure.
> >
> > I have had to do this a time or two. I have two 4" X 4" with about a 6" X 6" plywood screwed to the ends. The plywood goes on
> > the inside of each rim, for protection. You then place a scissor jack in the center to apply pressure against the rim. Not too
> > much pressure, just enough pressure.
> >
> > Make sure the spinning stud is down on the bottom to get most of the pressure. Youse your electric impact to give it a good
> > shot.
> >
> > Larry (worked for me) - Cleveland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sean:
> >
> >
> > Since the other three lugs came off, try prying the wheel away from the hub cocking the wheel a bit. You'll probably need a
> > piece of wood or something that won't damage the wheel. The idea is to put enough load on the studs that the hat on the back
> > of the stud will bind against the axle flange "freezing" the stud and then the impact wrench will loosen the nut. This might
> > take a bit of force and finesse, and several sets of hands.
> >
> >
> > It's been some time since I've had mine apart, but if you can get the wheel off, you might be able to get a wire-feed or stick
> > welder in there far enough to spot weld the stud and hold it in place until you want to change the studs.
> >
> >
> > Good luck and don't swear too much!!
> >
> >
> > Jeff 2467
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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> > DeTomaso mailing list
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> >
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> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> > I tried all the suggestions with no luck. The jack idea did put
> > pressure on the wheel but I was nervous to really apply a lot of force.
> > I've already screwed up enough. I just drilled out the stud and was
> > able to get the last lug nut off and remove the wheel.
> > Only took about 10min using three different drill bit sizes.
> > Now the hard part begins taking the rest of the hub apart. And spending
> > $$$
> > From: [1]sean mundy
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:57 PM
> > To: [2] detomaso at server.detomasolist mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist .com, [3] larry at ohiotimecorp.com mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > You are using the jack between the bottom of the wheels and pushing
> > them against each other??
> > From: larry at ohiotimecorp.com mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:33 PM
> > To:
> > detomaso at server.detomasolist mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist .com<mailto: detomaso at server.detomasolist mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist .co
> > m>
> > I'm with Jeff on this one. Pressure baby pressure.
> > I have had to do this a time or two. I have two 4" X 4" with about a 6"
> > X 6" plywood screwed to the ends. The plywood goes on
> > the inside of each rim, for protection. You then place a scissor jack
> > in the center to apply pressure against the rim. Not too
> > much pressure, just enough pressure.
> > Make sure the spinning stud is down on the bottom to get most of the
> > pressure. Youse your electric impact to give it a good
> > shot.
> > Larry (worked for me) - Cleveland
> > Sean:
> > Since the other three lugs came off, try prying the wheel away from the
> > hub cocking the wheel a bit. You'll probably need a
> > piece of wood or something that won't damage the wheel. The idea is to
> > put enough load on the studs that the hat on the back
> > of the stud will bind against the axle flange "freezing" the stud and
> > then the impact wrench will loosen the nut. This might
> > take a bit of force and finesse, and several sets of hands.
> > It's been some time since I've had mine apart, but if you can get the
> > wheel off, you might be able to get a wire-feed or stick
> > welder in there far enough to spot weld the stud and hold it in place
> > until you want to change the studs.
> > Good luck and don't swear too much!!
> > Jeff 2467
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist .com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > References
> > 1. mailto: seanmundy at hotmail.com mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com 2. mailto: detomaso at server.detomasolist mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist .com 3. mailto: larry at ohiotimecorp.com mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist .com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > >
-------------- next part --------------
Sean:
More fuel to the fire!
If you are getting almost half an inch of nut/stud interface but only
the end of the stud is damaged, (.0250 ish??) then over torque of the
threads seems unlikely. I believe over-torque should affect the portion
of the stud closest to the wheel end of the nut as that is the part of
the stud that should stretch the most. The portion of the stud deep in
the nut would be less likely to stretch/deform and damage the threads.
So.... It's beginning to sound like the nuts were initially
cross-threaded which damaged the threads on the end of the stud, but
then the nut mated properly after a few turns? Could be induced by
using an impact driver to install the nuts? What do the threads inside
the nut look like?
Glad you didn't lose a wheel!
I have to get back to changing my cam.....
Jeff/2467
On July 17, 2018 at 11:45 AM sean mundy <seanmundy at hotmail.com>
wrote:
The picture is misleading because the damaged threads you see are on
the very end of the stud. That is not where the lug nut ends up when
tightened all the way. I re-measured the depths and I have .496 lug
engagement and the stud width is .482. It seems I don't have the
preferred 1.5 times size differential. I am able to turn the lug nut
360deg from start to tight 8.5 times. I haven't lost a wheel in 14 yrs
so maybe I just got lucky. I will get longer studs since I have to get
new ones anyway. Thanks Jeff!
From: [1]Jeff Kimball
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 7:07 AM
To: [2]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, [3]sean mundy,
[4]larry at ohiotimecorp.com
Sean:
At the risk of starting another conflagration, from looking at the
photos, I'd suspect the stock studs are too short for the Kodiak
wheels. All the damage shown on the stud seems to be on the last 1/4
inch or so. This seems to indicate inadequate depth of insertion of
the stud into the lug nut. When the torque was applied this resulted
in the threads on the stud and nut deforming due to the limited
interface being inadequate to support the load. When you tried to take
them off, the deformed threads wouldn't turn and the stud and lug nut
"became one".
I don't have any specs handy, but I seem to recall that the stud/nut
interface is supposed to be something like twice the diameter of the
stud or something like that.
In an over-torque condition, a proper stud/nut interface should result
in the stud breaking off before the threads fail.
Anti-seize is always a good idea.
Since you are going to tear the thing apart, you might investigate this
a bit more and make sure you have the correct stud length for those
wheels.
And as usual, "your experience may vary!".
Jeff/2467
On July 16, 2018 at 5:26 PM sean mundy wrote:
I tried all the suggestions with no luck. The jack idea did put
pressure on the wheel but I was nervous to really apply a lot of
force. I've already screwed up enough. I just drilled out the stud
and was able to get the last lug nut off and remove the wheel.
Only took about 10min using three different drill bit sizes.
Now the hard part begins taking the rest of the hub apart. And
spending $$$
From: sean mundy
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:57 PM
To: [5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, [6]larry at ohiotimecorp.com
You are using the jack between the bottom of the wheels and pushing
them against each other??
From: [7]larry at ohiotimecorp.com
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:33 PM
To: [8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
I'm with Jeff on this one. Pressure baby pressure.
I have had to do this a time or two. I have two 4" X 4" with about a
6" X 6" plywood screwed to the ends. The plywood goes on
the inside of each rim, for protection. You then place a scissor
jack in the center to apply pressure against the rim. Not too
much pressure, just enough pressure.
Make sure the spinning stud is down on the bottom to get most of the
pressure. Youse your electric impact to give it a good
shot.
Larry (worked for me) - Cleveland
Sean:
Since the other three lugs came off, try prying the wheel away from
the hub cocking the wheel a bit. You'll probably need a
piece of wood or something that won't damage the wheel. The idea is
to put enough load on the studs that the hat on the back
of the stud will bind against the axle flange "freezing" the stud
and then the impact wrench will loosen the nut. This might
take a bit of force and finesse, and several sets of hands.
It's been some time since I've had mine apart, but if you can get
the wheel off, you might be able to get a wire-feed or stick
welder in there far enough to spot weld the stud and hold it in
place until you want to change the studs.
Good luck and don't swear too much!!
Jeff 2467
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
I tried all the suggestions with no luck. The jack idea did put
pressure on the wheel but I was nervous to really apply a lot of
force.
I've already screwed up enough. I just drilled out the stud and was
able to get the last lug nut off and remove the wheel.
Only took about 10min using three different drill bit sizes.
Now the hard part begins taking the rest of the hub apart. And
spending
$$$
From: [1]sean mundy
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:57 PM
To: [2] [11]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, [3]
[12]larry at ohiotimecorp.com
You are using the jack between the bottom of the wheels and pushing
them against each other??
From: [13]larry at ohiotimecorp.com
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:33 PM
To:
[14]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:
[15]detomaso at server.detomasolist.co
m>
I'm with Jeff on this one. Pressure baby pressure.
I have had to do this a time or two. I have two 4" X 4" with about a
6"
X 6" plywood screwed to the ends. The plywood goes on
the inside of each rim, for protection. You then place a scissor
jack
in the center to apply pressure against the rim. Not too
much pressure, just enough pressure.
Make sure the spinning stud is down on the bottom to get most of the
pressure. Youse your electric impact to give it a good
shot.
Larry (worked for me) - Cleveland
Sean:
Since the other three lugs came off, try prying the wheel away from
the
hub cocking the wheel a bit. You'll probably need a
piece of wood or something that won't damage the wheel. The idea is
to
put enough load on the studs that the hat on the back
of the stud will bind against the axle flange "freezing" the stud
and
then the impact wrench will loosen the nut. This might
take a bit of force and finesse, and several sets of hands.
It's been some time since I've had mine apart, but if you can get
the
wheel off, you might be able to get a wire-feed or stick
welder in there far enough to spot weld the stud and hold it in
place
until you want to change the studs.
Good luck and don't swear too much!!
Jeff 2467
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
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etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto: [18]seanmundy at hotmail.com 2. mailto:
[19]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com 3. mailto:
[20]larry at ohiotimecorp.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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References
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2. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
3. mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com
4. mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
5. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist
6. mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
7. mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
8. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist
9. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist
10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
11. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist
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13. mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
14. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist
15. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist
16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
18. mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com
19. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist
20. mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com
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