[DeTomaso] Spinning wheel stud

Julian Kift julian_kift at hotmail.com
Tue Jul 17 15:26:33 EDT 2018 

On the flip side be careful when using closed head wheel nuts that they don't bottom out on a longer stud and reach the specified torque spec before pre-loading the wheel (torque is simply a resistance to turning rather than any preload on the wheel). For the 12x1.5mm hardware the Pantera uses the recommendation is a minimum hardware engagement of 6.5 full turns, so it would seem you are in the safe zone.


With aftermarket wheels be sure to check the wheel lug hole chamfer matches the nuts (conical or spherical). Only use minimal anti seize on the threads and do not put any on the seating faces of wheel and nut.


If in doubt "tighten until the stud snaps, then back off half a turn".

Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of sean mundy <seanmundy at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 11:45 AM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; larry at ohiotimecorp.com; Jeff Kimball
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Spinning wheel stud

The picture is misleading because the damaged threads you see are on the very end of the stud.  That is not where the lug nut ends up when tightened all the way.  I re-measured the depths and I have .496 lug engagement and the stud width is .482.  It seems I don't have the preferred 1.5 times size differential.  I am able to turn the lug nut 360deg from start to tight 8.5 times.  I haven't lost a wheel in 14 yrs so maybe I just got lucky.  I will get longer studs since I have to get new ones anyway.  Thanks Jeff!

From: Jeff Kimball<mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net>
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎17‎, ‎2018 ‎7‎:‎07‎ ‎AM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, sean mundy<mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com>, larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>


Sean:


At the risk of starting another conflagration, from looking at the photos, I'd suspect the stock studs are too short for the Kodiak wheels.  All the damage shown on the stud seems to be on the last 1/4 inch or so.  This seems to indicate inadequate depth of insertion of the stud into the lug nut.  When the torque was applied this resulted in the threads on the stud and nut deforming due to the limited interface being inadequate to support the load.  When you tried to take them off, the deformed threads wouldn't turn and the stud and lug nut "became one".


I don't have any specs handy, but I seem to recall that the stud/nut interface is supposed to be something like twice the diameter of the stud or something like that.


In an over-torque condition, a proper stud/nut interface should result in the stud breaking off before the threads fail.


Anti-seize is always a good idea.


Since you are going to tear the thing apart, you might investigate this a bit more and make sure you have the correct stud length for those wheels.


And as usual, "your experience may vary!".


Jeff/2467


On July 16, 2018 at 5:26 PM sean mundy wrote:


I tried all the suggestions with no luck. The jack idea did put pressure on the wheel but I was nervous to really apply a lot of force. I’ve already screwed up enough. I just drilled out the stud and was able to get the last lug nut off and remove the wheel.
Only took about 10min using three different drill bit sizes.
Now the hard part begins taking the rest of the hub apart. And spending $$$

From: sean mundy
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎July‎ ‎16‎, ‎2018 ‎2‎:‎57‎ ‎PM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com, larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>

You are using the jack between the bottom of the wheels and pushing them against each other??



From: larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎July‎ ‎16‎, ‎2018 ‎2‎:‎33‎ ‎PM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com

I'm with Jeff on this one. Pressure baby pressure.

I have had to do this a time or two. I have two 4" X 4" with about a 6" X 6" plywood screwed to the ends. The plywood goes on
the inside of each rim, for protection. You then place a scissor jack in the center to apply pressure against the rim. Not too
much pressure, just enough pressure.

Make sure the spinning stud is down on the bottom to get most of the pressure. Youse your electric impact to give it a good
shot.

Larry (worked for me) - Cleveland




Sean:


Since the other three lugs came off, try prying the wheel away from the hub cocking the wheel a bit. You'll probably need a
piece of wood or something that won't damage the wheel. The idea is to put enough load on the studs that the hat on the back
of the stud will bind against the axle flange "freezing" the stud and then the impact wrench will loosen the nut. This might
take a bit of force and finesse, and several sets of hands.


It's been some time since I've had mine apart, but if you can get the wheel off, you might be able to get a wire-feed or stick
welder in there far enough to spot weld the stud and hold it in place until you want to change the studs.


Good luck and don't swear too much!!


Jeff 2467

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I tried all the suggestions with no luck. The jack idea did put
pressure on the wheel but I was nervous to really apply a lot of force.
I've already screwed up enough. I just drilled out the stud and was
able to get the last lug nut off and remove the wheel.
Only took about 10min using three different drill bit sizes.
Now the hard part begins taking the rest of the hub apart. And spending
$$$
From: [1]sean mundy
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:57 PM
To: [2] detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com, [3] larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
You are using the jack between the bottom of the wheels and pushing
them against each other??
From: larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:33 PM
To:
detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com<mailto: detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.co
m>
I'm with Jeff on this one. Pressure baby pressure.
I have had to do this a time or two. I have two 4" X 4" with about a 6"
X 6" plywood screwed to the ends. The plywood goes on
the inside of each rim, for protection. You then place a scissor jack
in the center to apply pressure against the rim. Not too
much pressure, just enough pressure.
Make sure the spinning stud is down on the bottom to get most of the
pressure. Youse your electric impact to give it a good
shot.
Larry (worked for me) - Cleveland
Sean:
Since the other three lugs came off, try prying the wheel away from the
hub cocking the wheel a bit. You'll probably need a
piece of wood or something that won't damage the wheel. The idea is to
put enough load on the studs that the hat on the back
of the stud will bind against the axle flange "freezing" the stud and
then the impact wrench will loosen the nut. This might
take a bit of force and finesse, and several sets of hands.
It's been some time since I've had mine apart, but if you can get the
wheel off, you might be able to get a wire-feed or stick
welder in there far enough to spot weld the stud and hold it in place
until you want to change the studs.
Good luck and don't swear too much!!
Jeff 2467
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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References
1. mailto: seanmundy at hotmail.com<mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com> 2. mailto: detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com 3. mailto: larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
_______________________________________________


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-------------- next part --------------
   On the flip side be careful when using closed head wheel nuts that they
   don't bottom out on a longer stud and reach the specified torque spec
   before pre-loading the wheel (torque is simply a resistance to turning
   rather than any preload on the wheel). For the 12x1.5mm hardware the
   Pantera uses the recommendation is a minimum hardware engagement of 6.5
   full turns, so it would seem you are in the safe zone.

   With aftermarket wheels be sure to check the wheel lug hole chamfer
   matches the nuts (conical or spherical). Only use minimal anti seize on
   the threads and do not put any on the seating faces of wheel and nut.

   If in doubt "tighten until the stud snaps, then back off half a turn".
   Julian
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
   sean mundy <seanmundy at hotmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 11:45 AM
   To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; larry at ohiotimecorp.com; Jeff
   Kimball
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Spinning wheel stud

   The picture is misleading because the damaged threads you see are on
   the very end of the stud.  That is not where the lug nut ends up when
   tightened all the way.  I re-measured the depths and I have .496 lug
   engagement and the stud width is .482.  It seems I don't have the
   preferred 1.5 times size differential.  I am able to turn the lug nut
   360deg from start to tight 8.5 times.  I haven't lost a wheel in 14 yrs
   so maybe I just got lucky.  I will get longer studs since I have to get
   new ones anyway.  Thanks Jeff!
   From: Jeff Kimball<[1]mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net>
   Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 7:07 AM
   To:
   detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.co
   m>, sean mundy<[2]mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com>,
   larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
   Sean:
   At the risk of starting another conflagration, from looking at the
   photos, I'd suspect the stock studs are too short for the Kodiak
   wheels.  All the damage shown on the stud seems to be on the last 1/4
   inch or so.  This seems to indicate inadequate depth of insertion of
   the stud into the lug nut.  When the torque was applied this resulted
   in the threads on the stud and nut deforming due to the limited
   interface being inadequate to support the load.  When you tried to take
   them off, the deformed threads wouldn't turn and the stud and lug nut
   "became one".
   I don't have any specs handy, but I seem to recall that the stud/nut
   interface is supposed to be something like twice the diameter of the
   stud or something like that.
   In an over-torque condition, a proper stud/nut interface should result
   in the stud breaking off before the threads fail.
   Anti-seize is always a good idea.
   Since you are going to tear the thing apart, you might investigate this
   a bit more and make sure you have the correct stud length for those
   wheels.
   And as usual, "your experience may vary!".
   Jeff/2467
   On July 16, 2018 at 5:26 PM sean mundy wrote:
   I tried all the suggestions with no luck. The jack idea did put
   pressure on the wheel but I was nervous to really apply a lot of force.
   I've already screwed up enough. I just drilled out the stud and was
   able to get the last lug nut off and remove the wheel.
   Only took about 10min using three different drill bit sizes.
   Now the hard part begins taking the rest of the hub apart. And spending
   $$$
   From: sean mundy
   Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:57 PM
   To:
   detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com,
   larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
   You are using the jack between the bottom of the wheels and pushing
   them against each other??
   From: larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
   Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:33 PM
   To:
   detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com
   I'm with Jeff on this one. Pressure baby pressure.
   I have had to do this a time or two. I have two 4" X 4" with about a 6"
   X 6" plywood screwed to the ends. The plywood goes on
   the inside of each rim, for protection. You then place a scissor jack
   in the center to apply pressure against the rim. Not too
   much pressure, just enough pressure.
   Make sure the spinning stud is down on the bottom to get most of the
   pressure. Youse your electric impact to give it a good
   shot.
   Larry (worked for me) - Cleveland
   Sean:
   Since the other three lugs came off, try prying the wheel away from the
   hub cocking the wheel a bit. You'll probably need a
   piece of wood or something that won't damage the wheel. The idea is to
   put enough load on the studs that the hat on the back
   of the stud will bind against the axle flange "freezing" the stud and
   then the impact wrench will loosen the nut. This might
   take a bit of force and finesse, and several sets of hands.
   It's been some time since I've had mine apart, but if you can get the
   wheel off, you might be able to get a wire-feed or stick
   welder in there far enough to spot weld the stud and hold it in place
   until you want to change the studs.
   Good luck and don't swear too much!!
   Jeff 2467
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   DeTomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist>.com
   [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   I tried all the suggestions with no luck. The jack idea did put
   pressure on the wheel but I was nervous to really apply a lot of force.
   I've already screwed up enough. I just drilled out the stud and was
   able to get the last lug nut off and remove the wheel.
   Only took about 10min using three different drill bit sizes.
   Now the hard part begins taking the rest of the hub apart. And spending
   $$$
   From: [1]sean mundy
   Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:57 PM
   To: [2]
   detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com,
   [3] larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
   You are using the jack between the bottom of the wheels and pushing
   them against each other??
   From: larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
   Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:33 PM
   To:
   detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com<m
   ailto:
   detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.co
   m>
   I'm with Jeff on this one. Pressure baby pressure.
   I have had to do this a time or two. I have two 4" X 4" with about a 6"
   X 6" plywood screwed to the ends. The plywood goes on
   the inside of each rim, for protection. You then place a scissor jack
   in the center to apply pressure against the rim. Not too
   much pressure, just enough pressure.
   Make sure the spinning stud is down on the bottom to get most of the
   pressure. Youse your electric impact to give it a good
   shot.
   Larry (worked for me) - Cleveland
   Sean:
   Since the other three lugs came off, try prying the wheel away from the
   hub cocking the wheel a bit. You'll probably need a
   piece of wood or something that won't damage the wheel. The idea is to
   put enough load on the studs that the hat on the back
   of the stud will bind against the axle flange "freezing" the stud and
   then the impact wrench will loosen the nut. This might
   take a bit of force and finesse, and several sets of hands.
   It's been some time since I've had mine apart, but if you can get the
   wheel off, you might be able to get a wire-feed or stick
   welder in there far enough to spot weld the stud and hold it in place
   until you want to change the studs.
   Good luck and don't swear too much!!
   Jeff 2467
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   DeTomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist>.com
   [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   References
   1. mailto: seanmundy at hotmail.com<mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com> 2.
   mailto:
   detomaso at server.detomasolist<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist>.com
   3. mailto: larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

   1. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
   2. mailto:seanmundy at hotmail.com
   3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

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