[DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ? - Uneven shock adjustments
jderyke at aol.com
jderyke at aol.com
Mon Jan 1 04:46:18 EST 2018
The Pantera monococque was built up of many pieces of sheet metal in a welding jig. But I suspect that as many as five different jigs were used over Ford's tenure, so there WILL be differences. Most often, the right front side will not match perfectly with the left. This was the case with our '72 L and several others I know of. I've mentioned this before in newsletter articles- most recently when I weight-balanced our car without coil-overs, to not expect laser-like duplication left-to-right. All 4 corners took different thickness shims and adding coil-overs later did not correct it. A few cars have imperfectly-aligned radiator crossmembers, and all this is in cars NOT hit hard in accidents. Accident restorations may correct or magnify factory parts misalignments.
It's not unique to the Pantera, either. Most of the 427 Cobra replicas in the world stem from a mold taken from one genuine car back in the early '80s. And that car had been hit in the right front during semi-pro racing years before, so when one of my engineer friends dropped plumb-bobs from his replica body suspended over the frame, he was amazed to find disparities. I told him these were all hand built, limited production cars including the originals and not to expect too much.
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Mike & Elizabeth Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net>; 'Don Thomas' <dtpantera at gmail.com>; 'DeTomaso_List' <DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 31, 2017 3:52 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ? - Uneven shock adjustments
I was only half way through that thought and must have pressed the
wrong key....
What's the limiting factor on the right front, tire hits fender, shock
out of adjustment? Remember very few people are running wheels and tire
combinations the Pantera was designed for and came with. If it's
aesthetic appearance you are after then setting ground clearance equal
all round is sufficient, but for 'optimal handling' I'd set the car up
on corner weights with driver in the seat and half a tank of gas.
For street cars and coil over shocks it's often a bit of a compromise
and I have always been of the opinion, it is not necessarily optimally
thought out by owners and vendors. A lot of aftermarket shock options
when set where owners would like them have zero pre-load on the spring.
I've seen vendors supply zip ties to keep springs in place when the
suspension is unloaded, that is far from optimal, much better to use
helper springs to keep at least some load on the spring or a shorter
shock absorber.
If you have run out of shock adjustment to get the desired ride height
then your shock and/or springs are likely too long, you want to get
to a point you have a small amount of pre-load. I personally think that
on the front of a Pantera a shorter uncompressed shock with a 10"
spring is often a better option.
This thought was resurrected recently as I'm modifying a 280Z for my
son and sectioning the struts for a coil over conversion. In the case
of the Z cars it can be done in such a way that the ride height can be
adjusted independent of spring pre-load.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:00 AM
To: Mike & Elizabeth Thomas; 'Don Thomas'; 'DeTomaso_List'
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ? - Uneven
shock adjustments
Sent from [1]Outlook
__________________________________________________________________
From: Mike & Elizabeth Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 10:03 AM
To: 'Julian Kift'; 'Don Thomas'; 'DeTomaso_List'
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ? - Uneven
shock adjustments
This question brings up a curiosity I've had about #6328 since I first
put
the adjustable Alden coilovers, then the set of Konis from DQ, on the
car.
I wanted to set the ride height such that the car was level all around
and
the rear lower A arms were parallel to the ground, what I understand
was
Dallara's intent when he designed the suspension for the Pantera for
optimal
handling. However, I could not quite get there: When I went to adjust
the
front coilovers, there is almost a 3/4" difference left to right to get
the
front of the car level side to side. When I realized the right front
was
the limiting factor, I adjusted the rest to match, and had to stop
there.
At this setting, when measured at the rocker front and back, both
sides,
there is no more then 1/8" difference at any location. This was done
with a
full tank of fuel, but without a driver. The car would still have to
drop
another 1/2" to get the rear A arms parallel to the ground.
Does this affect the way the car drives? Probably not, but it became a
curiosity when I was trying to set it up. I did not do any other
measurements to compare such as the distance between shock mounting
points
side to side, etc., and will have that checked and corrected if
possible
when the car goes in for restoration in a year or two. I also know the
car
was hit at some point in the left rear, but don't believe that twisted
the
monocoque as all doors and panels align properly and the majority of
the car
is dead straight (some sheet metal issues where the repair was done
that
will need reworking).
Thoughts? Is this not uncommon?
What say you?
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [[2]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
Behalf
Of Julian Kift
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 7:56 AM
To: Don Thomas <dtpantera at gmail.com>; DeTomaso_List
<DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ?
Compressed length, uncompressed length or length at normal road height
at
rest?
Just about everything you could want from a chassis/suspension datum
perspective is here at Ted Mitchell's Vader Racing site;
[3]http://www.vaderacing.com/tech.htm
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Don
Thomas <dtpantera at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 10:48 PM
To: DeTomaso_List
Subject: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ?
What's the shock Eye to Eye length ?
Best regards,
-dt
Don Thomas
References
1. http://aka.ms/weboutlook
2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. http://www.vaderacing.com/tech.htm
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-------------- next part --------------
The Pantera monococque was built up of many pieces of sheet metal in a
welding jig. But I suspect that as many as five different jigs were
used over Ford's tenure, so there WILL be differences. Most often, the
right front side will not match perfectly with the left. This was the
case with our '72 L and several others I know of. I've mentioned this
before in newsletter articles- most recently when I weight-balanced our
car without coil-overs, to not expect laser-like duplication
left-to-right. All 4 corners took different thickness shims and adding
coil-overs later did not correct it. A few cars have
imperfectly-aligned radiator crossmembers, and all this is in cars NOT
hit hard in accidents. Accident restorations may correct or magnify
factory parts misalignments.
It's not unique to the Pantera, either. Most of the 427 Cobra replicas
in the world stem from a mold taken from one genuine car back in the
early '80s. And that car had been hit in the right front during
semi-pro racing years before, so when one of my engineer friends
dropped plumb-bobs from his replica body suspended over the frame, he
was amazed to find disparities. I told him these were all hand built,
limited production cars including the originals and not to expect too
much.
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Mike & Elizabeth Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net>; 'Don Thomas'
<dtpantera at gmail.com>; 'DeTomaso_List'
<DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 31, 2017 3:52 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ? - Uneven
shock adjustments
I was only half way through that thought and must have pressed the
wrong key....
What's the limiting factor on the right front, tire hits fender, shock
out of adjustment? Remember very few people are running wheels and tire
combinations the Pantera was designed for and came with. If it's
aesthetic appearance you are after then setting ground clearance equal
all round is sufficient, but for 'optimal handling' I'd set the car up
on corner weights with driver in the seat and half a tank of gas.
For street cars and coil over shocks it's often a bit of a compromise
and I have always been of the opinion, it is not necessarily optimally
thought out by owners and vendors. A lot of aftermarket shock options
when set where owners would like them have zero pre-load on the spring.
I've seen vendors supply zip ties to keep springs in place when the
suspension is unloaded, that is far from optimal, much better to use
helper springs to keep at least some load on the spring or a shorter
shock absorber.
If you have run out of shock adjustment to get the desired ride height
then your shock and/or springs are likely too long, you want to get
to a point you have a small amount of pre-load. I personally think that
on the front of a Pantera a shorter uncompressed shock with a 10"
spring is often a better option.
This thought was resurrected recently as I'm modifying a 280Z for my
son and sectioning the struts for a coil over conversion. In the case
of the Z cars it can be done in such a way that the ride height can be
adjusted independent of spring pre-load.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: Julian Kift <[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:00 AM
To: Mike & Elizabeth Thomas; 'Don Thomas'; 'DeTomaso_List'
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ? - Uneven
shock adjustments
Sent from [1]Outlook
__________________________________________________________________
From: Mike & Elizabeth Thomas <[2]mbefthomas at comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 10:03 AM
To: 'Julian Kift'; 'Don Thomas'; 'DeTomaso_List'
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ? - Uneven
shock adjustments
This question brings up a curiosity I've had about #6328 since I first
put
the adjustable Alden coilovers, then the set of Konis from DQ, on the
car.
I wanted to set the ride height such that the car was level all around
and
the rear lower A arms were parallel to the ground, what I understand
was
Dallara's intent when he designed the suspension for the Pantera for
optimal
handling. However, I could not quite get there: When I went to adjust
the
front coilovers, there is almost a 3/4" difference left to right to get
the
front of the car level side to side. When I realized the right front
was
the limiting factor, I adjusted the rest to match, and had to stop
there.
At this setting, when measured at the rocker front and back, both
sides,
there is no more then 1/8" difference at any location. This was done
with a
full tank of fuel, but without a driver. The car would still have to
drop
another 1/2" to get the rear A arms parallel to the ground.
Does this affect the way the car drives? Probably not, but it became a
curiosity when I was trying to set it up. I did not do any other
measurements to compare such as the distance between shock mounting
points
side to side, etc., and will have that checked and corrected if
possible
when the car goes in for restoration in a year or two. I also know the
car
was hit at some point in the left rear, but don't believe that twisted
the
monocoque as all doors and panels align properly and the majority of
the car
is dead straight (some sheet metal issues where the repair was done
that
will need reworking).
Thoughts? Is this not uncommon?
What say you?
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [[2][3]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
On
Behalf
Of Julian Kift
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 7:56 AM
To: Don Thomas <[4]dtpantera at gmail.com>; DeTomaso_List
<[5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ?
Compressed length, uncompressed length or length at normal road height
at
rest?
Just about everything you could want from a chassis/suspension datum
perspective is here at Ted Mitchell's Vader Racing site;
[3][6]http://www.vaderacing.com/tech.htm
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-[7]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of
Don
Thomas <[8]dtpantera at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 10:48 PM
To: DeTomaso_List
Subject: [DeTomaso] What's the shock Eye to Eye length ?
What's the shock Eye to Eye length ?
Best regards,
-dt
Don Thomas
References
1. [9]http://aka.ms/weboutlook
2. [10]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. [11]http://www.vaderacing.com/tech.htm
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
3. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
4. mailto:dtpantera at gmail.com
5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. http://www.vaderacing.com/tech.htm
7. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
8. mailto:dtpantera at gmail.com
9. http://aka.ms/weboutlook
10. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
11. http://www.vaderacing.com/tech.htm
12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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