[DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
Jeff Cobb
jeffcobb1 at me.com
Sat Feb 17 14:03:14 EST 2018
Mike,
Something strikes me as being out of order in the problem-cause and effect diagnosis of understanding and fixing your brake pedal travel problem in reading these back and forth mails. You write as if these problems just appeared.
Seems that your real stated problem is;
-1-perceived or really too much pedal travel.
-2-cannot lock up wheels
Also:
-1-more brake dust on rear wheels versus the fronts.
My questions are simple.
-1-When this problem start?
Not when you first noticed or recognized it, but when it first showed up.
-2-Was this first time problem right after someone worked on it?
-3-Has someone done any adjusting to the pedal unit?
My brake work fixing history has taught me:
--Your #1 and 2 make sense.
--This type of problem #1 and #2 does not just show up
--Also more rear dust than fronts indicates a brake bias imbalance.
NEVER do rears have more dust than fronts on any car because of laminar air flow.
The fronts always run hotter which emits more gas and powder.
--That GM masters NEVER give a tight brake pedal unless they are p/s pumped hydraulic boosted power brake function or
using a vacuum booster with an electric motor vacuum pump.
The vacuum should be between 16 to 21.
My thoughts to cure your two stated problems.
-1-Make sure the brake pedal to booster pushrod does not have any slack caused by wear and giving sloppy joints,
That the first pushrod is set correctly so that the pedal is correct height from floor.
the vacuum booster pushrod to master does not have too much clearance--Should be about .020”.
-2-Then bled your brakes in the correct order; RR-LR-RF-LF.
while watching for air bubbles and any type of pad to rotor air clearances/movement so to give reasons.
If doing above work makes no difference “which I would be surprised”.
-3- then you need to plug off the master outputs and see if master travel is non and rock hard.
When all above is correct and still note problems then you problem is in the fluid/caliper/pad space.
-4-If you had rubber lines you could pinch them off with vise grips and find the soft one.
Since you do not then a temp gun and some hard 60mph stops will give you your temp rise to grip performance function.
Do 3 stops then measure/record then do 6 or so more and read and write again.
Axle temps should be same and fronts are always more.
The lowest temp unit will be your problem.
Thoughts:
-1-I have had brake problems caused by owners spraying tire shine shit on their wheels. That crap coats and greases the rotors which then kills the pads from gripping.
-2-Also calipers with rubber piston boots that retract the pads more than .002” will cause problems.
-3-Also if the rotors are not dead center to caliper then weird stuff lives on. Calipers can be shimmed to center them.
Jaguar did that on all of their XJS v12 cars and when I recently removed my Mangustas L rear caliper, mounting shims were present. Which was it first ever removal, so the factory did the shims because of manufacturing differences.
If none of this allows the car to stop better then maybe your pads function temp range is not right for you.
Take care,
Jeff Cobb
On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:45 AM, Mike & Elizabeth Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net> wrote:
> Thanks all. I am planning a full-on restoration of the car in a year
> or two, and running of fresh brake lines, master, etc. even if I do
> retain the original Girling brakes, will be on the list. I will try a
> proper bleeding, and it may not be a bad idea to upgrade to whatever
> master I intend to use after the restoration. I may consider going the
> full Willwood route, but as I never intend to track the car, that may
> be overkill. If I stay with the Girling calipers, I'll certainly have
> them properly rebuilt.
>
>
> Mike Thomas
>
>
> From: Julian Kift [mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 8:20 AM
> To: Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. <byrdjf at embarqmail.com>; 'Mike & Elizabeth
> Thomas' <mbefthomas at comcast.net>; 'List DeTomaso Forum'
> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Cc: 'List DeTomaso Forum' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
>
>
> Your diagram refers to the shuttle valve, the proportioning valve is
> the hunk of metal in front trunk also but plumbed purely to the front
> brakes limiting output pressure by about 20% of input. It does much the
> same as a stepped master cylinder in compensating for woefully
> undersized rear calipers. It was installed based on tires of the day
> etc. but modern rubber especially 335 on the rear significantly alters
> brake balance and wheel lockup front to rear.
>
>
> Although referring to the wrong valve your postulation that air is
> trapped in it might be a very valid one, that or it's probably
> the master cylinder going bad. I have a Motive pressure bleeder and it
> makes the task an easy and one man operation, with no fear of running
> the reservoir dry during bleeding (yes we've all done it!).
>
>
> As a general note removing or gutting the proportioning valve should be
> evaluated along with any brake component upgrade (note Mike said he has
> an aftermarket master cylinder). It is hard to get all the components
> matched perfectly right to ensure the front brakes lock up just before
> the rears, hence installation of a more modern adjustable brake
> proportioning valve can provide the fine tuning to ensure that. I would
> strongly recommend everyone test their brakes for lockup periodically
> on a very quiet and wide stretch of asphalt, not only is that a basic
> safety test it also provides you a measure of what pedal force locks up
> the brakes, if only under the road conditions prevailing at the time
>
>
> Julian
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
> of Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. <[2]byrdjf at embarqmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 8:06 AM
> To: 'Mike & Elizabeth Thomas'
> Cc: 'List DeTomaso Forum'
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
>
>
> Forgive me, but after having to participate in several "Fault Tree"
> evaluations where we thought of ridiculous scenarios that could be
> possible.
> Given;
> ~3 inches of travel before braking
> Rear doing the most braking
> The proportional valve is gutted
> Assume;
> Air is trapped in the proportional. This would cause the first master
> cylinder piston to travel while not establishing front caliper pressure
> to move the second piston. After 3" of pedal travel, the first piston
> makes contact with the second and now the rear caliper pressure is
> devolved with majority rear braking.
> However, one would expect the differential valve to give failure lamp.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [[3]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
> Behalf Of Mike & Elizabeth Thomas
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 10:37 AM
> To: 'Mike Drew'; 'List DeTomaso Forum'
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
> Thanks, certainly the cheapest and least invasive approach.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Drew [[4]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 9:04 PM
> To: Mike & Elizabeth Thomas <[5]mbefthomas at comcast.net>
> Cc: List DeTomaso Forum <[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
> Mike,
> Another note. If the Les Schwab people are so dumb that they don't know
> that DOT4 is just DOT3 with a higher boiling point, I.e. an improved
> product that is 100% interchangeable, I wouldn't trust them to do a
> proper job of filling and bleeding your brakes.
> I suspect there is nothing really wrong. Carefully drive to a friend's
> house, one with good mechanical aptitude and an appetite for the beer
> you will bring on the passenger seat, and together just bleed the
> brakes properly using a quality brake fluid. (I like ATE Typ 200,
> available from Tire Rack, Summit and Amazon to I suspect). I have a
> feeling they will be perfect afterwards....
> Mike
> Sent from my iPad
>> On Feb 16, 2018, at 18:50, Mike & Elizabeth Thomas
> <[7]mbefthomas at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> I've been working through trying to figure what seems like a
> weakness
>> in my brakes on 6328.
>>
>>
>> How do they feel now? There seems like a fair bit of pedal travel
>> before they start to hook up. Once they hook, they're fine when
> I'm
>> just in normal traffic and stop and go. If I have to stomp down on
>> them, it just doesn't seem like they're biting very well. If I
> have to
>> really stomp on them, I can't get any wheel to lock up at all.
>>
>>
>> Current setup: the brakes are stock Girling, rebuild in 2004.
> they've
>> been fully bled at Les Schwab 6 months ago with DOT 3 (they
> wouldn't
>> use DOT 4 as it was not spec). Yes, they were aware that there
> were
>> two nipples on the front, the tech that handled me has 2 or 3
> Panteras
>> that come in through the year. The flex lines were replaced with
>> stainless lines in 2004 when all of the calipers were rebuilt. The
>> vacuum line from the engine to the tube and tube to booster is
> recent,
>> about 3-4 years ago. So far as I know, the proportioning valve has
>> been gutted, but not really sure nor know how to be sure. The
> master
>> is an early `80's GM/Cadillac replaced about 10 years ago, the same
> was
>> in the car when I bought it in `04. I've just replaced the
> Porterfield
>> R4S pads. It was rather cold day when I went out to burn them in
> so
>> first speculation is that they are not fully `seasoned'. However,
> they
>> feel about the same as the previous 10-yr old R4S's, and that
> wouldn't
>> explain the pedal travel. The booster is original so far as I
> know.
>>
>>
>> First question, how much pedal travel should there be before the
> pedal
>> feels resistance the brakes start to take up?
>>
>>
>> So, what else can I check/do out to figure out why my brakes seem
> so
>> lazy. I will try to re-season them when the weather gets warmer,
> but
>> that won't deal with pedal travel. When brake booster starts to
> fail,
>> how does that happen? Gradually or all at once?
>>
>>
>> Your input is appreciated and eagerly awaited. I'd like to get
> this
>> figgered before the season starts as everything else is running a
> well
>> as it ever has.
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Mike Thomas
>>
>> Pres., Panteras Northwest
>>
>> 206-795-3302
>>
>> Yellow '74 #6328
>>
>> [1][8]www.panterasnorthwest.com
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [9]http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
>> exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
>> [10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
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> [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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> use the links above.
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> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
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> References
>
> 1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 2. mailto:byrdjf at embarqmail.com
> 3. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
> 5. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
> 6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 7. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
> 8. http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
> 9. http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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-------------- next part --------------
Mike,
Something strikes me as being out of order in the problem-cause and
effect diagnosis of understanding and fixing your brake pedal travel
problem in reading these back and forth mails. You write as if these
problems just appeared.
Seems that your real stated problem is;
-1-perceived or really too much pedal travel.
-2-cannot lock up wheels
Also:
-1-more brake dust on rear wheels versus the fronts.
My questions are simple.
-1-When this problem start?
Not when you first noticed or recognized it, but when it first showed
up.
-2-Was this first time problem right after someone worked on it?
-3-Has someone done any adjusting to the pedal unit?
My brake work fixing history has taught me:
--Your #1 and 2 make sense.
--This type of problem #1 and #2 does not just show up
--Also more rear dust than fronts indicates a brake bias imbalance.
NEVER do rears have more dust than fronts on any car because of
laminar air flow.
The fronts always run hotter which emits more gas and powder.
--That GM masters NEVER give a tight brake pedal unless they are p/s
pumped hydraulic boosted power brake function or
using a vacuum booster with an electric motor vacuum pump.
The vacuum should be between 16 to 21.
My thoughts to cure your two stated problems.
-1-Make sure the brake pedal to booster pushrod does not have any slack
caused by wear and giving sloppy joints,
That the first pushrod is set correctly so that the pedal is correct
height from floor.
the vacuum booster pushrod to master does not have too much
clearance--Should be about .020.
-2-Then bled your brakes in the correct order; RR-LR-RF-LF.
while watching for air bubbles and any type of pad to rotor air
clearances/movement so to give reasons.
If doing above work makes no difference which I would be surprised.
-3- then you need to plug off the master outputs and see if master
travel is non and rock hard.
When all above is correct and still note problems then you problem is
in the fluid/caliper/pad space.
-4-If you had rubber lines you could pinch them off with vise grips and
find the soft one.
Since you do not then a temp gun and some hard 60mph stops will give
you your temp rise to grip performance function.
Do 3 stops then measure/record then do 6 or so more and read and
write again.
Axle temps should be same and fronts are always more.
The lowest temp unit will be your problem.
Thoughts:
-1-I have had brake problems caused by owners spraying tire shine shit
on their wheels. That crap coats and greases the rotors which then
kills the pads from gripping.
-2-Also calipers with rubber piston boots that retract the pads more
than .002 will cause problems.
-3-Also if the rotors are not dead center to caliper then weird stuff
lives on. Calipers can be shimmed to center them.
Jaguar did that on all of their XJS v12 cars and when I recently
removed my Mangustas L rear caliper, mounting shims were present. Which
was it first ever removal, so the factory did the shims because of
manufacturing differences.
If none of this allows the car to stop better then maybe your pads
function temp range is not right for you.
Take care,
Jeff Cobb
On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:45 AM, Mike & Elizabeth Thomas
<[1]mbefthomas at comcast.net> wrote:
Thanks all. I am planning a full-on restoration of the car in a
year
or two, and running of fresh brake lines, master, etc. even if I
do
retain the original Girling brakes, will be on the list. I will
try a
proper bleeding, and it may not be a bad idea to upgrade to
whatever
master I intend to use after the restoration. I may consider
going the
full Willwood route, but as I never intend to track the car, that
may
be overkill. If I stay with the Girling calipers, I'll certainly
have
them properly rebuilt.
Mike Thomas
From: Julian Kift [[2]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 8:20 AM
To: Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. <[3]byrdjf at embarqmail.com>; 'Mike &
Elizabeth
Thomas' <[4]mbefthomas at comcast.net>; 'List DeTomaso Forum'
<[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Cc: 'List DeTomaso Forum' <[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
Your diagram refers to the shuttle valve, the proportioning valve
is
the hunk of metal in front trunk also but plumbed purely to the
front
brakes limiting output pressure by about 20% of input. It does
much the
same as a stepped master cylinder in compensating for woefully
undersized rear calipers. It was installed based on tires of the
day
etc. but modern rubber especially 335 on the rear significantly
alters
brake balance and wheel lockup front to rear.
Although referring to the wrong valve your postulation that air is
trapped in it might be a very valid one, that or it's probably
the master cylinder going bad. I have a Motive pressure bleeder
and it
makes the task an easy and one man operation, with no fear of
running
the reservoir dry during bleeding (yes we've all done it!).
As a general note removing or gutting the proportioning valve
should be
evaluated along with any brake component upgrade (note Mike said
he has
an aftermarket master cylinder). It is hard to get all the
components
matched perfectly right to ensure the front brakes lock up just
before
the rears, hence installation of a more modern adjustable brake
proportioning valve can provide the fine tuning to ensure that. I
would
strongly recommend everyone test their brakes for lockup
periodically
on a very quiet and wide stretch of asphalt, not only is that a
basic
safety test it also provides you a measure of what pedal force
locks up
the brakes, if only under the road conditions prevailing at the
time
Julian
____________________________________________________________________
_
From: DeTomaso <[1][7]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf
of Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. <[2][8]byrdjf at embarqmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 8:06 AM
To: 'Mike & Elizabeth Thomas'
Cc: 'List DeTomaso Forum'
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
Forgive me, but after having to participate in several "Fault
Tree"
evaluations where we thought of ridiculous scenarios that could be
possible.
Given;
~3 inches of travel before braking
Rear doing the most braking
The proportional valve is gutted
Assume;
Air is trapped in the proportional. This would cause the first
master
cylinder piston to travel while not establishing front caliper
pressure
to move the second piston. After 3" of pedal travel, the first
piston
makes contact with the second and now the rear caliper pressure is
devolved with majority rear braking.
However, one would expect the differential valve to give failure
lamp.
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso
[[3][9]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
Behalf Of Mike & Elizabeth Thomas
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 10:37 AM
To: 'Mike Drew'; 'List DeTomaso Forum'
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
Thanks, certainly the cheapest and least invasive approach.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew [[4][10]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 9:04 PM
To: Mike & Elizabeth Thomas <[5][11]mbefthomas at comcast.net>
Cc: List DeTomaso Forum <[6][12]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Trying to diagnose weak brakes
Mike,
Another note. If the Les Schwab people are so dumb that they don't
know
that DOT4 is just DOT3 with a higher boiling point, I.e. an
improved
product that is 100% interchangeable, I wouldn't trust them to do
a
proper job of filling and bleeding your brakes.
I suspect there is nothing really wrong. Carefully drive to a
friend's
house, one with good mechanical aptitude and an appetite for the
beer
you will bring on the passenger seat, and together just bleed the
brakes properly using a quality brake fluid. (I like ATE Typ 200,
available from Tire Rack, Summit and Amazon to I suspect). I have
a
feeling they will be perfect afterwards....
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 16, 2018, at 18:50, Mike & Elizabeth Thomas
<[7][13]mbefthomas at comcast.net> wrote:
I've been working through trying to figure what seems like a
weakness
in my brakes on 6328.
How do they feel now? There seems like a fair bit of pedal travel
before they start to hook up. Once they hook, they're fine when
I'm
just in normal traffic and stop and go. If I have to stomp down on
them, it just doesn't seem like they're biting very well. If I
have to
really stomp on them, I can't get any wheel to lock up at all.
Current setup: the brakes are stock Girling, rebuild in 2004.
they've
been fully bled at Les Schwab 6 months ago with DOT 3 (they
wouldn't
use DOT 4 as it was not spec). Yes, they were aware that there
were
two nipples on the front, the tech that handled me has 2 or 3
Panteras
that come in through the year. The flex lines were replaced with
stainless lines in 2004 when all of the calipers were rebuilt. The
vacuum line from the engine to the tube and tube to booster is
recent,
about 3-4 years ago. So far as I know, the proportioning valve has
been gutted, but not really sure nor know how to be sure. The
master
is an early `80's GM/Cadillac replaced about 10 years ago, the same
was
in the car when I bought it in `04. I've just replaced the
Porterfield
R4S pads. It was rather cold day when I went out to burn them in
so
first speculation is that they are not fully `seasoned'. However,
they
feel about the same as the previous 10-yr old R4S's, and that
wouldn't
explain the pedal travel. The booster is original so far as I
know.
First question, how much pedal travel should there be before the
pedal
feels resistance the brakes start to take up?
So, what else can I check/do out to figure out why my brakes seem
so
lazy. I will try to re-season them when the weather gets warmer,
but
that won't deal with pedal travel. When brake booster starts to
fail,
how does that happen? Gradually or all at once?
Your input is appreciated and eagerly awaited. I'd like to get
this
figgered before the season starts as everything else is running a
well
as it ever has.
Thanks
Mike Thomas
Pres., Panteras Northwest
206-795-3302
Yellow '74 #6328
[1][8][14]www.panterasnorthwest.com
References
1. [9][15]http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
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References
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2. [21]mailto:byrdjf at embarqmail.com
3. [22]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
4. [23]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
5. [24]mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
6. [25]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. [26]mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
8. [27]http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
9. [28]http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
10. [29]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. [30]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
12. [31]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. [32]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
1. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
2. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
3. mailto:byrdjf at embarqmail.com
4. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
5. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
8. mailto:byrdjf at embarqmail.com
9. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
10. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
11. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
12. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
14. http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
15. http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
18. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
19. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
20. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
21. mailto:byrdjf at embarqmail.com
22. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
23. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
24. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
25. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
26. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
27. http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
28. http://www.panterasnorthwest.com/
29. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
30. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
31. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
32. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
33. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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